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January 14, 2014 10:08 pm  #1


Why is Janine not dead?

I find Janine's survival to be distinctly unlikely if Mary is telling the truth about her motivation; Mary claimed that she would do anything, including shooting Sherlock once and threatening to do it again, to prevent John learning the truth about her and yet Janine, who provided her with access to CAM, is alive and well.

If she is prepared to kill to protect herself then why leave a witness who can identify her? Unless, of course, her relationship with Janine goes somewhat beyond bride and chief bridesmaid...

 

January 14, 2014 10:16 pm  #2


Re: Why is Janine not dead?

I thought initially that she just used Janine to get information on CAM - as in, Janine didn't even realise that. But you made me realise Janine must have let her in that night.

Maybe she saw her and let her in cos she was excited to discuss the great news of her engagement to Sherlock??

 

January 14, 2014 10:26 pm  #3


Re: Why is Janine not dead?

Janine didn't die for plot reasons. If she had died in CAM's flat Sherlock could have been blamed for another murder victim - at least indirectly. Would have been too much of a bad thing for Sherlock's character.
Even more important: A dead Janine couldn't have delivered that scene at Sherlock's hospital bedside. Couldn't have made those canon nods about bees and Sussex.


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John: "Have you spoken to Mycroft, Molly, uh, anyone?"
Mrs Hudson: "They don’t matter. You do."


I BELIEVE IN SERIES 5!
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January 14, 2014 11:09 pm  #4


Re: Why is Janine not dead?

Swanpride wrote:

Mary might have entered through different means...she is a trained agent, after all. And Janine might not have even seen her.

 
She is a trained agent, but so is Sherlock, who has just spent 2 years at the sharp end;  if Sherlock couldn't get through the security at Tower 42 without Janine then Mary couldn't either.

I do not believe that the writers would Mary Sue her character to the point where she has superhuman ninja skills enabling her to scale a skyscraper in the most heavily policed part of London without anyone noticing.

And if Mary is genuinely trying to hide from people aware of her past, why would she maintain a friendship with the PA to a man notorious for his interest in acquiring information to exert power wherever he can? Even if Mary met Janine casually I would expect her to drop her at the speed of light as soon as she realised who her employer was...

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January 14, 2014 11:19 pm  #5


Re: Why is Janine not dead?

Willow wrote:

Swanpride wrote:

Mary might have entered through different means...she is a trained agent, after all. And Janine might not have even seen her.

 
She is a trained agent, but so is Sherlock, who has just spent 2 years at the sharp end; if Sherlock couldn't get through the security at Tower 42 without Janine then Mary couldn't either.

I do not believe that the writers would Mary Sue her character to the point where she has superhuman ninja skills enabling her to scale a skyscraper in the most heavily policed part of London without anyone noticing.

And if Mary is genuinely trying to hide from people aware of her past, why would she maintain a friendship with the PA to a man notorious for his interest in acquiring information to exert power wherever he can? Even if Mary met Janine casually I would expect her to drop her at the speed of light as soon as she realised who her employer was...

It was the other way round; she like Sherlock got close to Janine as a way to get closer to CAM.
But as I expressed on another thread why did CAM, the master blackmailer who holds all the knowledge, not know his PA had a best friend who was a trained assassin he had a file on, and was also in a relationship with a man who was out to get him.

 

 

January 14, 2014 11:23 pm  #6


Re: Why is Janine not dead?

tobeornot221b wrote:

Janine didn't die for plot reasons. If she had died in CAM's flat Sherlock could have been blamed for another murder victim - at least indirectly. Would have been too much of a bad thing for Sherlock's character.
Even more important: A dead Janine couldn't have delivered that scene at Sherlock's hospital bedside. Couldn't have made those canon nods about bees and Sussex.

But Janine would have been killed by Mary if Mary's explanation was true; I have confidence that the writers would have made do without the bees, and given that Sherlock himself flatlined I doubt anyone would have regarded another body as a character flaw of his.

Logically, it seems easier to posit Mary lying, given that we already know that she's a liar, than assume that the writers were simply being lazy...
 

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January 14, 2014 11:45 pm  #7


Re: Why is Janine not dead?

I don't think Mary walked in through the front door dressed like a ninja. Janine might not have even known Mary was the one who attacked her.

 

 

January 14, 2014 11:59 pm  #8


Re: Why is Janine not dead?

Swanpride wrote:

Sherlock has one month of preperation...Mary worked way longer on this, long enough that Janine was her chief bridesmaid. Who knows what kind of information she extracted from Janine during that time. Plus, Sherlock said that she "left through whatever way she came"...and she didn't encounter John on her way out.
Also, Sherlock is mostly about going undercover and getting information, he is not a trained thief, or bomb expert or anything else in this direction.

Sherlock was unconscious when Mary left; I'm pretty sure that not even Sherlock could manage to observe what someone was doing whilst he was dead to the world, and very close to being dead altogether.

It's difficult to see how being a trained thief or a bomb expert would have assisted Mary in scaling a skyscraper in the City of London; Sherlock was going undercover to get information via Janine, which is precisely what you say his skills are. And it still makes no sense for Mary to pursue a friendship with Janine if Mary really wanted out; all that did was expose her to more risk. Admittedly, it made no sense for Mary to have anything to do with John Watson either; that exposed her to the risk of publicity as well, which is inadvisable for anyone trying to escape from their previous career.

The simplest explanation is that Mary was lying about her reasons for shooting Sherlock; the only things we can be sure of is that she did shoot him, and she tried to track him through London with a loaded gun in her pocket, thus requiring the deterrent of her picture projected against the 'Empty House' to make sure the police would spot something amiss if his body was found there.

If we are going to speculate then perhaps Sherlock may have been egocentric in assuming that she called the ambulance for him; it's possible that it was for Janine...




 

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January 15, 2014 12:41 am  #9


Re: Why is Janine not dead?

How does Janine arrive to work every day? Does she uses Magnussen's private lift or there is another lift she uses? Anyway she must have a card that gives her access or someone else must have one (a security person that lets her in). Cards can be stolen or cloned and I'm sure Mary found a way to do just that to get in. I don't think Janine gave her access.

 

January 15, 2014 1:25 am  #10


Re: Why is Janine not dead?

Mrs. Watson wrote:

How does Janine arrive to work every day? Does she uses Magnussen's private lift or there is another lift she uses? Anyway she must have a card that gives her access or someone else must have one (a security person that lets her in). Cards can be stolen or cloned and I'm sure Mary found a way to do just that to get in. I don't think Janine gave her access.

I should perhaps explain that I live in the City and worked here for many years; it is riddled with paranoia which makes it cutting edge security territory. All cards and all keys will have an elaborate tracking system which enables them to be traced at all times; no-one, but no-one, can obtain copies or clones because the companies whose job it is to produce those cards and keys will only do so for a request signed by the top security officer who will have already have launched an investigation into how one went missing.

I cannot even obtain duplicates of my own personal keys to my home from anyone other than the one company that makes them, and I need to have a very good reason indeed to order them. I am expected to have made a police report about the missing/mislaid/stolen keys.

I appreciate that what seems normal to me may seem strange to people who are not familiar with the City, but that is the way the City works; it's why anyone living here falls about laughing at the idea that a card could be stolen and/or cloned.

And thus, having eliminated the impossible we are left with one option; Janine let her in.
 

     Thread Starter
 

January 15, 2014 8:14 am  #11


Re: Why is Janine not dead?

Why did Mary dress like a ninja (sorry but I chuckled when I saw that) if the 'costume' didn't even include a cover for her face and everybody could tell it was her?

 

January 15, 2014 9:09 am  #12


Re: Why is Janine not dead?

I think the most obvious reason for not killing off Janine is that it would be pretty hard to sympathise with Maries character after that.
Edit: Well... I could have lived with it, muhahaha...

Last edited by b2s (January 15, 2014 9:12 am)

 

January 15, 2014 11:40 am  #13


Re: Why is Janine not dead?

b2s wrote:

I think the most obvious reason for not killing off Janine is that it would be pretty hard to sympathise with Maries character after that.
Edit: Well... I could have lived with it, muhahaha...

I really like your evil villain's laugh; I'm not convinced on the sympathy front.

Of course, until Season 4 comes along we can enjoy ourselves waiting for the other shoe to drop...

     Thread Starter
 

January 15, 2014 12:07 pm  #14


Re: Why is Janine not dead?

but what dark, though? wouldn't it be easier to just look normal like J and S (they even have a coffee for crying out loud ) than to look like a cartoon burglar which would attract attention?

or has she really been climbing the building like a discount spiderman??

 

January 15, 2014 12:49 pm  #15


Re: Why is Janine not dead?

Willow wrote:

Mrs. Watson wrote:

How does Janine arrive to work every day? Does she uses Magnussen's private lift or there is another lift she uses? Anyway she must have a card that gives her access or someone else must have one (a security person that lets her in). Cards can be stolen or cloned and I'm sure Mary found a way to do just that to get in. I don't think Janine gave her access.

I should perhaps explain that I live in the City and worked here for many years; it is riddled with paranoia which makes it cutting edge security territory. All cards and all keys will have an elaborate tracking system which enables them to be traced at all times; no-one, but no-one, can obtain copies or clones because the companies whose job it is to produce those cards and keys will only do so for a request signed by the top security officer who will have already have launched an investigation into how one went missing.

I cannot even obtain duplicates of my own personal keys to my home from anyone other than the one company that makes them, and I need to have a very good reason indeed to order them. I am expected to have made a police report about the missing/mislaid/stolen keys.

I appreciate that what seems normal to me may seem strange to people who are not familiar with the City, but that is the way the City works; it's why anyone living here falls about laughing at the idea that a card could be stolen and/or cloned.

And thus, having eliminated the impossible we are left with one option; Janine let her in.
 

Willow, thank you for the information and I think you are technically right but not story-wise right. I mean, security systems in the city work as you explained but in HLV they either chose to ignore that and Mary found a way to clone/steal a card or thare was another way in. I don't think Janine let Mary in. She didn't know Sherlock was going to interrupt her so when Magnussen body was found Janine would have said "Mary was here!". It makes no sense.

 

January 15, 2014 12:54 pm  #16


Re: Why is Janine not dead?

Mrs. Watson wrote:

Willow wrote:

Mrs. Watson wrote:

How does Janine arrive to work every day? Does she uses Magnussen's private lift or there is another lift she uses? Anyway she must have a card that gives her access or someone else must have one (a security person that lets her in). Cards can be stolen or cloned and I'm sure Mary found a way to do just that to get in. I don't think Janine gave her access.

I should perhaps explain that I live in the City and worked here for many years; it is riddled with paranoia which makes it cutting edge security territory. All cards and all keys will have an elaborate tracking system which enables them to be traced at all times; no-one, but no-one, can obtain copies or clones because the companies whose job it is to produce those cards and keys will only do so for a request signed by the top security officer who will have already have launched an investigation into how one went missing.

I cannot even obtain duplicates of my own personal keys to my home from anyone other than the one company that makes them, and I need to have a very good reason indeed to order them. I am expected to have made a police report about the missing/mislaid/stolen keys.

I appreciate that what seems normal to me may seem strange to people who are not familiar with the City, but that is the way the City works; it's why anyone living here falls about laughing at the idea that a card could be stolen and/or cloned.

And thus, having eliminated the impossible we are left with one option; Janine let her in.
 

Willow, thank you for the information and I think you are technically right but not story-wise right. I mean, security systems in the city work as you explained but in HLV they either chose to ignore that and Mary found a way to clone/steal a card or thare was another way in. I don't think Janine let Mary in. She didn't know Sherlock was going to interrupt her so when Magnussen body was found Janine would have said "Mary was here!". It makes no sense.

this is also a good point. But then it would mean Mary sprung on her completely by surprise and knocked her out without her even getting a glimpse of her attacked. Which could mean her face was covered....

boy, this woman's really a ninja...

Last edited by Ozma (January 15, 2014 12:55 pm)

 

January 15, 2014 3:17 pm  #17


Re: Why is Janine not dead?

I'm listening to the Empire podcast and Mofftiss said that Mary entered through a window (TBB style) because she is a highly trianed agent.

 

January 15, 2014 5:04 pm  #18


Re: Why is Janine not dead?

Hi, 
Maybe this is not the correct section, but as  my comment is about Janine, I don't see necessary to open a new one to ask the following question:  Has any of you reacted the same way as John did when we saw Janine in Sherlock's flat?   I can't believe it, it am completely in shock!!! I love how John reacted, it was a very  quite fun moment. It's very strange to see Sherlock next to a woman, who is not Mrs Hudson.  I have only seen the first scenes of the episode and I needed to share my thoughts with all of you...  What did you feel when you saw Janine? Did you think that it was part of Sherlock's plan?
thanks,  now I will continue watching it...

Last edited by spanisherlock (January 15, 2014 5:06 pm)


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The begining of a great adventure!!!
 

January 15, 2014 6:55 pm  #19


Re: Why is Janine not dead?

Mrs. Watson wrote:

I'm listening to the Empire podcast and Mofftiss said that Mary entered through a window (TBB style) because she is a highly trianed agent.

Thanks for the tip, love to hear those two men giggle.

http://www.empireonline.com/podcast/
 

 

January 15, 2014 10:16 pm  #20


Re: Why is Janine not dead?

Mrs. Watson wrote:

I'm listening to the Empire podcast and Mofftiss said that Mary entered through a window (TBB style) because she is a highly trianed agent.

 

And, as we all know, Mofftiss never lie about Sherlock 

So, since we know that they do lie about it we revert to the real world.

Skyscrapers are sealed;  there are a myriad reasons for this, including cutting down on the number of people jumping out of them and landing on some poor person wandering along wondering what to buy for supper.

But mostly the windows are sealed because the massively expensive air conditioning/ heating doesn't work if someone opens one, so the architects and builders make sure that there are no windows which can actually open.

So we are back to Janine letting her in...

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