BBC Sherlock Fan Forum - Serving Sherlockians since February 2012 » Poor Janine

besleybean · November 8, 2014 8:35 pm

I'm not even certain Mary will be...

I feel all we can do is try to make sense of what we are shown and accept what we are told...unless we are shown something different.

Russell · November 9, 2014 4:02 am

maryagrawatson wrote:
I can't wait to hear the commentary, but I can't get the special disks where I'm currently living, so I have to wait. I think Janine and Sherlock are a great match. I was very much into the idea of Molly and Sherlock at first, but now not so much.

Mary

I hear ya! But don't forget (if you seen mention of her lately on here, with people catching what was said in the other specials), that there's the awesome fan who transcribes nearly everything, too -- http://arianedevere.livejournal.com Just in case you hadn't seen… better than nothing.

(and since it was already mentioned a number of posts ago, sorry if I am repeating something you already noticed, and agree it would be nice to also actually 'hear' them. ) Find it really interesting how they play off Janine and Sherlock, too, and it sounds fitting that Magnussen 'punishing' her would be because of letting Sherlock in, and she 'gets back' at them both by selling stories about Sherlock to CAM's rivals.

Last edited by Russell (November 9, 2014 4:13 am)

Liberty · November 9, 2014 8:05 am

It does make sense - the only trouble I have with it is I'd got the feeling that Magnussen's torture was an ongoing thing rather than a one-off (didn't he say something like "Janine managed to do it once"?), and by the time Janine arrives at the hospital she has presumably left the job and is moving to Sussex. And (although it wouldn't stop him being cruel) Magnussen lured Sherlock to the office that night (by showing him the letters). He needed Janine to let Sherlock in. I don't know!

It's funny that Moftiss tried to show Sherlock that he couldn't always treat people badly and expect them to adore him, but ended up (inadvertently?) making it look as if Janine was a baddie (she's in his cottage, getting rid of his beehives!). I think I would prefer if they'd left that bit in, and we could have had a cosier, less sinister ending to that scene ... IF Janine is going to be a goodie. It would be nice for Sherlock to have another ally at that point.

besleybean · November 9, 2014 8:22 am

I really don't see that scene showing us Janine as a baddie.
The team seem to make it quite clear, they just want somebody to give Sherlock a telling off.
All they say on the commentary is that she will be back.
I say again, with how Magnussen treats her, how both Mary and Sherlock use her...she seems very much painted as a victim.

maryagrawatson · November 9, 2014 2:21 pm

Russell wrote:
I hear ya! But don't forget (if you seen mention of her lately on here, with people catching what was said in the other specials), that there's the awesome fan who transcribes nearly everything, too

She is a gift to our fandom, isn't she?! I know how hard the transcripts are to do!

I also like the thought that Janine giving the stories to a rival was a way of getting back at CAM. She is either very, very strong in being able to handle bullying or the bullying didn't matter because it was part of a greater plan...

I really wish they had left in the bit about Janine and Sherlock growing old together. That would have set my mind at ease about Janine.

Mary

maryagrawatson · November 9, 2014 2:34 pm

besleybean wrote:
I really don't see that scene showing us Janine as a baddie.
The team seem to make it quite clear, they just want somebody to give Sherlock a telling off.

I really need to hear that commentary!

That scene in the hospital is so crucial to Sherlock's development. He treats the people he loves like crap and they just say, "Oh, it's Sherlock," and pretty much let him get away with his bad behaviour. Molly and John sometimes set him right, but generally speaking, Sherlock has learned that because he's so smart, he can get away with being an a*hole (his word!). I also think it's obvious that Mummy spoiled him rotten.

Along comes Janine, who says that they could have been friends had he just been honest with her. The look on Sherlock's face when he hears this, that he didn't need to trick her, that she would have gladly helped him, is telling. He's learned an important lesson here.

We don't get much time with Sherlock being honest with Janine, just that scene in the hospital, but I got the impression that he is fond of her as there are parallels with the Mummy and father scene in TEH. You've got the person who is annoying Sherlock prattling on and when he can finally get a word in, it's obvious he's been following the conversation. He asks a question and adds commentary ("Where's the cottage?" "Oh, nice!") to further the discussion rather than trying to end it.

Therefore, I think that based on that look after Janine says they could have been friends, Sherlock realises he could have used another friend and is unhappy with the way he treated her.

Mary

Liberty · November 9, 2014 4:08 pm

Especially when he'd just realised that he'd lost a friend and gained an enemy in Mary - yet threw away the chance of a genuine friend, somebody he really likes.

I'm sure there's a little bit in the commentary as well about Sherlock being over-indulged as a child, and Mrs Hudson's telling comment "Your mother has a lot to answer for". I don't think he means to be cruel, but just thought it was a "stroke of luck" that he'd met Janine at the wedding, and that she'd made it clear she was on the market and so there was an obvious way for Sherlock to manipulate her. He just went for what seemed a clever and logical plan, instead of asking her for help (so he has a bit of a nerve telling Mary off for not asking him!) the way a more average person might have done.

besleybean · November 9, 2014 4:31 pm

And you've just reminded me of something else...
I know to begin with Sherlock isn't very nice to Molly.
But in the end he realises what a nice girl she is and now they are pals.
Irene is smart and they enjoy ' playing the game' together.
Sherlock thinks Irene is vulnerable and that is why he saves her...even tho she'd done a bad thing.
Sherlock realises in the end Mary is a bit like him and so they become pals.
Now I don't want to be sexist, or even bitchy about Janine, even tho I didn't like her selling sex Sherlock stories to tabloids. I like her and she didn't deserve to be abused by Magnussen.
But at the end of the day, she comes on quite strongly to Sherlock and most of her wedding conversations with him are flirtatious, about getting off with people and kinky sex(the handcuffs).
Well she behaved like that...so can she be surprised when a man uses her?
She can count herself lucky she got somebody as decent as Sherlock.

Last edited by besleybean (November 9, 2014 4:32 pm)

Zatoichi · November 9, 2014 4:33 pm

Liberty wrote:
He just went for what seemed a clever and logical plan, instead of asking her for help (so he has a bit of a nerve telling Mary off for not asking him!) the way a more average person might have done.

Just that Janine was only a stranger when he met her, so he couldn´t know that she´d willingly help him to betray her boss. And Mary was Mrs. I-like-him-so-much-let´s-all-be-bffs-instantly-and-accept-his-vow-to-protect-us Watson.. she could have known. She should have known, if she really sees through him as much as we are supposed to believe.
But no, I agree that both should have been honest.. and you shouldn´t really compare levels of betrayal. But what Sherlock did still doesn´t feel nearly as severe as what Mary did to me.

Last edited by Zatoichi (November 9, 2014 4:34 pm)

besleybean · November 9, 2014 4:34 pm

I agree...yet he forgives her anyway!

Zatoichi · November 9, 2014 4:42 pm

He should never again say he´s not one of the angels if that´s really true..

Last edited by Zatoichi (November 9, 2014 4:55 pm)

besleybean · November 9, 2014 4:44 pm

I hate that expression and never accepted it.

Liberty · November 9, 2014 5:35 pm

@ Zatoichi, I don't know - they seem to have an instant chemistry at the wedding, unlike anything we've seen before. (John and Sherlock had instant chemistry too, in a different way - but look how quickly they developed trust). She wasn't just any old stranger. And Mary managed to "use" Janine as a friend - or Magnussen used Janine to befriend Mary - whichever way round it was! He's also, supposedly, clever enough to find out that Janine was being blackmailed by Magnussen (and so would have been happy to collaborate to escape him. Actually, maybe she thought that Mary might get her out of that position too).

besleybean wrote:
Now I don't want to be sexist, or even bitchy about Janine, even tho I didn't like her selling sex Sherlock stories to tabloids. I like her and she didn't deserve to be abused by Magnussen.
But at the end of the day, she comes on quite strongly to Sherlock and most of her wedding conversations with him are flirtatious, about getting off with people and kinky sex(the handcuffs).
Well she behaved like that...so can she be surprised when a man uses her?
She can count herself lucky she got somebody as decent as Sherlock.

Oh, she's just having fun! When Sherlock makes a sort of advance (throwing the buttonhole) she doesn't take him seriously. It's flirtatious banter. (And I think handcuffs are practically mandatory rather than kinky in 2014 ). Her being open about being on the market does set her up for Sherlock a little bit (if she wasn't interested in men, he'd have had to take a different approach), but that's not something she could have predicted. It's useful at the wedding, because he helps her to weed out unsuitable partners.

Harriet · November 9, 2014 5:43 pm

besleybean wrote:
Well she behaved like that...so can she be surprised when a man uses her?

Do you really believe that? I saw you are calling yourself a feminist? How does that go together?

besleybean · November 9, 2014 5:46 pm

Well I'm sorry if it sounded a bit harsh.
I really just meant she appeared to spend the whole wedding trying to get a man...well she got one.
And she couldn't have done any better, IMHO.

maryagrawatson · November 9, 2014 5:51 pm

Liberty wrote:
Oh, she's just having fun!

I think Sherlock gives it back as much to Janine. "Down, girl" is at the top of the list of the funniest things Sherlock has ever said. He is comfortable with Janine from the minute he meets her, as he was with John. I love how the two are flirting all through the wedding even though Janine knows she has no shot with him. Meanwhile, Sherlock is using his deduction skills to help her hook up with someone more suitable!

Mary

besleybean · November 9, 2014 5:54 pm

Well that didn't work out very well for her...when she ended up with Sherlock!

Liberty · November 9, 2014 6:00 pm

I agree, Mary!

And I just had another thought about why Sherlock chooses seduction over friendship - because it worked when Irene did it to him (and when he did it to Irene!). He has confirmed that love is a dangerous disadvantage, etc., but doesn't seem to apply that to non-sexual love. So he thinks he'll get further having her fall for him and being able to manipulate her, then he would by "recruiting" her.

Yes, she ended up with Sherlock later, but that wasn't her intention at the wedding - she thought she had him sussed. She did have him sussed, but I think in Janine's position, if Sherlock asked you out, even if there was a niggling doubt, you'd probably put it to one side and say yes.

Last edited by Liberty (November 9, 2014 6:06 pm)

Harriet · November 9, 2014 6:03 pm

Liberty wrote:
(And I think handcuffs are practically mandatory rather than kinky in 2014 ).

Mandatory? To whom?

Last edited by Harriet (November 9, 2014 6:03 pm)

Zatoichi · November 9, 2014 6:07 pm

Liberty wrote:
@ Zatoichi, I don't know - they seem to have an instant chemistry at the wedding, unlike anything we've seen before. (John and Sherlock had instant chemistry too, in a different way - but look how quickly they developed trust). She wasn't just any old stranger.

That John shot a person for Sherlock certainly helped to quickly develop his trust in him..

I never thought about if their chemistry at the wedding was sufficient to have the success of his mission rely on her cooperation - well, maybe? But if even I as a (in comparison to Sherlock ^^) normal and trusting person wouldn´t risk doing it I can see why he wouldn´t, either.

Edit: I love their chemistry at the wedding, and agree about this scene being absolutely hilarious.. her face..

Last edited by Zatoichi (November 9, 2014 6:15 pm)