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January 14, 2014 10:58 am  #21


Re: What Sherlock did...

SolarSystem wrote:

Again, I agree. And I also have some difficulties with Sherlock and Mary both saying it's practically John's fault that he ended up with her, just because he chose her. And that she is the way she is because John chose her. Come on! She is like that because she decided, for whatever reasons, to be like that. John fell in love with her, right. And yes, it's right that he loves and needs "the thrill of the chase", the adventure... but this...? I don't really like how this part of the scene in 221B plays out...

My take on this is that he chose her becouse of the way she is. Not the other way round. I think that he knew all along, maybe subconciously that there is something 'different' about her. An inkling that he decided not to question any further. Why would he for example let his pregnant wife go with him to the drugs den in a dogy part of town and leave her alown in the car? It's as if he knew perfectly well that she can hold her own.

 

January 14, 2014 11:03 am  #22


Re: What Sherlock did...

belis wrote:

My take on this is that he chose her becouse of the way she is. Not the other way round. I think that he knew all along, maybe subconciously that there is something 'different' about her. An inkling that he decided not to question any further. Why would he for example let his pregnant wife go with him to the drugs den in a dogy part of town and leave her alown in the car? It's as if he knew perfectly well that she can hold her own.

I really like your way of seeing this. I think I will stick to it in my head-canon. http://cdn.boardhost.com/emoticons/happy.png


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January 14, 2014 11:05 am  #23


Re: What Sherlock did...

So...Sherlock has been led to believe that CAM has a vault with all the evidence, rather than having anything on a computer. As soon as CAM reveals that all he has in in his own memory he becomes expendable. If he has no other physical records then why not kill him? He has played his hand badly. He is so keen to show off to Sherlock that this is his undoing. Once he id dead then everyone, not just Mary and John are let off the hook. The gun is John's (disregarding modern forensics which would show who fired the shot that killed CAM) so Sherlock waits until all can see that it is he who shoots CAM and not John (it fits into the story arc well too).


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Don't make people into heroes John. Heroes don't exist and if they did I wouldn't be one of them.
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January 14, 2014 11:15 am  #24


Re: What Sherlock did...

belis wrote:

SolarSystem wrote:

Again, I agree. And I also have some difficulties with Sherlock and Mary both saying it's practically John's fault that he ended up with her, just because he chose her. And that she is the way she is because John chose her. Come on! She is like that because she decided, for whatever reasons, to be like that. John fell in love with her, right. And yes, it's right that he loves and needs "the thrill of the chase", the adventure... but this...? I don't really like how this part of the scene in 221B plays out...

My take on this is that he chose her becouse of the way she is. Not the other way round. I think that he knew all along, maybe subconciously that there is something 'different' about her. An inkling that he decided not to question any further. Why would he for example let his pregnant wife go with him to the drugs den in a dogy part of town and leave her alown in the car? It's as if he knew perfectly well that she can hold her own.

yes really agree this is a great take on it
 


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Sherlock Holmes "The question is, has she been working on something deadlier than a rabbit?"
John Watson : "To be fair, that is quite a wide field"

The Hounds of Baskerville
 

January 14, 2014 11:16 am  #25


Re: What Sherlock did...

I still wonder, why didn't Sherlock realise the mind palace thing, when he saw the ordinary spectacles of CAM?
Also he didn't remind the telegram of CAM...
Maybe the morphine is to blame...


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January 14, 2014 11:17 am  #26


Re: What Sherlock did...

belis wrote:

SolarSystem wrote:

Again, I agree. And I also have some difficulties with Sherlock and Mary both saying it's practically John's fault that he ended up with her, just because he chose her. And that she is the way she is because John chose her. Come on! She is like that because she decided, for whatever reasons, to be like that. John fell in love with her, right. And yes, it's right that he loves and needs "the thrill of the chase", the adventure... but this...? I don't really like how this part of the scene in 221B plays out...

My take on this is that he chose her becouse of the way she is. Not the other way round. I think that he knew all along, maybe subconciously that there is something 'different' about her. An inkling that he decided not to question any further. Why would he for example let his pregnant wife go with him to the drugs den in a dogy part of town and leave her alown in the car? It's as if he knew perfectly well that she can hold her own.

Maybe. But there is a lot of space between someone being 'different' and able to hold one's own and being a former CIA agent.


___________________________________________________
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"We did observe." - David Tennant in "Richard II"

 
 

January 14, 2014 11:25 am  #27


Re: What Sherlock did...

The presumption is that Sherlock does all this to protect John and 'Mary'. I suspect that his motivation is wider ranging and that apart from all the other people endangered by CAM he also kills him to protect HIMSELF.


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Don't make people into heroes John. Heroes don't exist and if they did I wouldn't be one of them.
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January 14, 2014 11:26 am  #28


Re: What Sherlock did...

Two things:

1) It was really heartbreaking to see Young Sherlock crying - his older version remains stoic in front of his self-imposed downfall while the child inside him (maybe the "truest" Sherlock) is vulnerable, desperate and most importantly, alone in front of his destiny. In a sense Sherlock's whole arc this season has been, subtly, about loneliness: returning home after two years, finding the old familiar (beloved?) faces but not quite fitting right back in because everyone's moved on while fighting, or trying to ignore, the sense of loss.

2) As much as it was a climactic moment, I doubt it was the first time Sherlock killed someone. He went rogue for two years working on multiple cases around the world, I guess he did stain his hands at some point.

 

January 14, 2014 12:33 pm  #29


Re: What Sherlock did...

SolarSystem wrote:

belis wrote:

SolarSystem wrote:

Again, I agree. And I also have some difficulties with Sherlock and Mary both saying it's practically John's fault that he ended up with her, just because he chose her. And that she is the way she is because John chose her. Come on! She is like that because she decided, for whatever reasons, to be like that. John fell in love with her, right. And yes, it's right that he loves and needs "the thrill of the chase", the adventure... but this...? I don't really like how this part of the scene in 221B plays out...

My take on this is that he chose her becouse of the way she is. Not the other way round. I think that he knew all along, maybe subconciously that there is something 'different' about her. An inkling that he decided not to question any further. Why would he for example let his pregnant wife go with him to the drugs den in a dogy part of town and leave her alown in the car? It's as if he knew perfectly well that she can hold her own.

Maybe. But there is a lot of space between someone being 'different' and able to hold one's own and being a former CIA agent.

It depends how finely tuned John's subconscious actually is. What is interesting is that he consciously protests about her coming, and at other times he is protective of her. In the canon, there was no question of Mary Morstan coming at all. But at the end of the day he comes, and he leaves her in the car alone.

His unconscious, the part that makes him fall in love, is clearly attracted to something. What, we are not quite sure, I think. Is he attracted just to danger, to adrenaline? Or is his attraction actually darker than that? Is he attracted to loose canons and anarchy (interesting for a sucessful army man) ? 

I don' t think there is any actual evidence that he is attracted to people who are morally dodgy-is there? The fact it takes months before he forgives Mary shows that really, I think. I think its more that, with the territory of danger and anarchy, you will get people who are morally very questionable.

Last edited by beekeeper (January 14, 2014 12:35 pm)


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Sherlock Holmes "The question is, has she been working on something deadlier than a rabbit?"
John Watson : "To be fair, that is quite a wide field"

The Hounds of Baskerville
 

January 15, 2014 8:46 am  #30


Re: What Sherlock did...

shezza wrote:

As much as it was a climactic moment, I doubt it was the first time Sherlock killed someone. He went rogue for two years working on multiple cases around the world, I guess he did stain his hands at some point.

 I don't know... Sherlock can be pretty ruthless, we know it since the beginning (he wasn't above torturing dying man in SiP in order to get the name of Moriarty from him and took a pretty violent revenge on CIA agent for his hurting mrs Hudson), but still he reacts pretty emotionally when someone gets killed in front of him. He was affected by the old lady's death in TGG, even if he pretended to be  indifferent about it. He was shaken when people where shot in front of him in TRF. He is not a cold-blooded assasin and in a sense his "decision" to become a murderer for John's sake was the greatest sacrifice he made, IMO. I was struck by the difference between Sherlock and Mary in this aspect: S. obviously knows he will have to kill Magnussen from the moment he discovers the vaults don't exist and he needs all his courage and determination to do this (I really, really don't think his fear of consequences of this act is most important for him at this moment), while Mary declares with absolute indifference that "men like Magnussen should be killed" as if she weren't talking about a man but a vermin (of course, M. IS a human vermin, but that's not the point). She is absolutely scary and were she to kill M. it would be disgusting. 
 

Last edited by miriel68 (January 15, 2014 8:48 am)

     Thread Starter
 

January 15, 2014 10:27 am  #31


Re: What Sherlock did...

~~Sherlock’s behavior in HLV seems to me not quite in character. 1. He rescued Magnussen first which is a deviation from canon and his reasons to do so are not talked about (morality?, being on the side of the angels?) and led to the following results 2. He finally killed Magnussen by pulling the trigger himself which is IMO a step too far into dark territory. He just wouldn’t or shouldn't do that IMO.
This is both wrong: Not in canon and not in character. If you can’t bring someone to justice you need to influence him to do it himself without getting your hands dirty. A lesson we should have learned from TRF.

The whole scenario is not balanced. The bright side of Sherlock is too bright in The Sign of Three and the dark side is also too much into amorality. As if somebody is sitting behind the camera and has decided to play with the lightning just for the sake of seeing what happens.
Sherlock needs to find his balance again aka John.

 

January 15, 2014 10:30 am  #32


Re: What Sherlock did...

I agree that Mary is scary. As much as Magnussen was terrifying and disgusting, he never gave me the chills as much as Mary did when I saw her at Sherlock’s bedside, hissing at him to keep his mouth shut.  I have goosebumps just thinking about it.
 
John is lucky that she is apparently in love with him, because we've seen how she can be even with people she likes...

 

January 15, 2014 10:34 am  #33


Re: What Sherlock did...

Be wrote:

~~Sherlock’s behavior in HLV seems to me not quite in character.

Maybe we should not forget that we are not talking about fanfic here, but about the official show. This is how Moftiss see Sherlock now, and we can like it (which I do, btw) or not, but we definitely have to accept that.

The question if his behaviour is still consistent with the canon is another thing.


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I still believe that love conquers all!

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"Quick, man, if you love me."
 

January 15, 2014 11:51 am  #34


Re: What Sherlock did...

I agree with the people who criticized the way Mary is portrayed. She has killed multiple people, not only during the time she worked as an agent, but also later, apparently for money. And still, John takes her back. Still, Sherlock sees her as a victim, somebody who needs to be protected. Somebody who doesn't deserve going to prison for what she did. Which, in my opinion, is wrong. I've talked about this (murder and justice) a lot in another thread (I don't like HLV / Criticism), so I'm not going to bring all that up again.
Secondly: I disagree that killing Magnussen was the only option. Everybody knows Magnussen. He is famous in England, and apparently, the public doesn't hold much against him except maybe publishing shitty newspapers. It would be possible, easy even, to hoist him with his own petard. You'd only have to spread some horrible rumours about him, I mean, it wouldn't even have to be a lie, he's done enough such things. There are so many victims who could just team up. I mean, what do they have to loose? Obviously, some people would have to make sacrifices, and yeah, maybe he'd even win a court procedure. However, that would leave him and his reputation tarnished. Especially because all he does is spread rumours, too - he won't be able to prove most of the stuff he'd tell about the judges. People wouldn't believe it.  Just like Magnussen said, if you work in news, you don't need proof. It's easy to destroy a reputation with nothing but rumours. I mean, it could even work that way - somebody in the news would have to buck up and try. I would've found that much more interesting than having Sherlock shoot him. (Which is something that happens, I know that. People kill others. But a) not Sherlock, especially not to save somebody else, and b) I missed the judgement (see afore mentioned thread).)

 

January 15, 2014 12:47 pm  #35


Re: What Sherlock did...

Be wrote:

~~Sherlock’s behavior in HLV seems to me not quite in character. 1. He rescued Magnussen first which is a deviation from canon and his reasons to do so are not talked about (morality?, being on the side of the angels?) and led to the following results 2. He finally killed Magnussen by pulling the trigger himself which is IMO a step too far into dark territory. He just wouldn’t or shouldn't do that IMO.
This is both wrong: Not in canon and not in character. If you can’t bring someone to justice you need to influence him to do it himself without getting your hands dirty. A lesson we should have learned from TRF.

The whole scenario is not balanced. The bright side of Sherlock is too bright in The Sign of Three and the dark side is also too much into amorality. As if somebody is sitting behind the camera and has decided to play with the lightning just for the sake of seeing what happens.
Sherlock needs to find his balance again aka John.

Killing a man who is outside of the reaches of the law is 'too dark', but refusing to investigate the crime when he watched a woman kill Milverton and purposely did not intervene isn't?  Is watching someone else murder a person when you have the ability to stop them really that much better than killing them them yourself?  In both cases, your actions caused the man to die.

The original Holmes could be pretty dark, too.


__________________________________________________________________Bigby: Will you shut up?
Colin: Well, maybe if my throat wasn’t so parched, I wouldn’t have to keep talking.
Bigby: Wait, that doesn’t make se-
Coline: Just give me a drink, please.
 

January 15, 2014 12:54 pm  #36


Re: What Sherlock did...

shezza wrote:

Two things:

1) It was really heartbreaking to see Young Sherlock crying - his older version remains stoic in front of his self-imposed downfall while the child inside him (maybe the "truest" Sherlock) is vulnerable, desperate and most importantly, alone in front of his destiny.

Yes, but this was from Mycroft's POV, this is how Mycroft saw him. 
 

 

January 15, 2014 12:58 pm  #37


Re: What Sherlock did...

Indeed. And I think it would be quite naive to hope Magnussen would be sentenced and sit nicely in his prison cell with all that knowledge in his brain. 
IMO Moffat created a situation in which the only solution is to have Magnussen die. One may discuss the way they did this but we should remember that this is fiction. And for the sake of drama writers create these situations in which their protagonists are placed. 
This does not mean that I want criminals killed off in real life. And I am against capital punishment. But we should not forget that this is a work of fiction. And as Swanpride said, Sherlock Holmes has his dark sides. I think a politically correct Sherlock would really put me off.  

 


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"To fake the death of one sibling may be regarded as a misfortune; to fake the death of both looks like carelessness." Oscar Wilde about Mycroft Holmes

"It is what it is says love." (Erich Fried)

“Enjoy the journey of life and not just the endgame. I’m also a great believer in treating others as you would like to be treated.” (Benedict Cumberbatch)

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January 15, 2014 1:10 pm  #38


Re: What Sherlock did...

agree.


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..I've always assumed that love is a dangerous disadvantage. Thank you for the final proof...
 

January 15, 2014 1:12 pm  #39


Re: What Sherlock did...

I agree again. 


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"To fake the death of one sibling may be regarded as a misfortune; to fake the death of both looks like carelessness." Oscar Wilde about Mycroft Holmes

"It is what it is says love." (Erich Fried)

“Enjoy the journey of life and not just the endgame. I’m also a great believer in treating others as you would like to be treated.” (Benedict Cumberbatch)

http://up.picr.de/28609194so.png

 
 

January 15, 2014 1:15 pm  #40


Re: What Sherlock did...

Swanpride wrote:

More important, Sherlock Holmes had his dark side, too. He was not all lawful, he often let criminals get aways with their crime when he considered their motives sound. Sometimes he acts himself like a blackmailer in a way, pressuring guilty parties to pay for what they want to keep secret. We have gotten so used to "Sherlock Holmes the Hero" that we have forgotten that he was not written as one, but as a flawed character - with a fascinating intellect.

 
That's wonderfully put!  I completely agree and feel like this season has really shown us more of the Sherlock that I remember reading in the canon, especially in relation to this episode, but definitely updated.

 

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