BBC Sherlock Fan Forum - Serving Sherlockians since February 2012 » What Sherlock did...

SusiGo · January 18, 2014 12:31 pm

You are not unwelcome, bb. And people are free to voice their thoughts provided they do it in a respectful and polite way. That is at least my idea of this board.

besleybean · January 18, 2014 12:45 pm

Cheers.
But I guess I also need to consider staying on topic!

Hanka · January 18, 2014 12:47 pm

besleybean wrote:
I have my own views on this, but feel I may have already overstepped the mark on this board and do not want to make myself even more unwelcome!

You haven't, at least not in my opinion Don't be afraid to say your opinion just because some people disagree. (Maybe I'm not the one to judge because I'm just as bad as you are with posting my opinion everywhere :D but really, why not. We are all free to voice our thoughts.)

Religion, to me, is comparable to a hobby. Or maybe a taste in music. Some people like listening to Justin Bieber, some prefer Green Day, and some listen to nothing but Ed Sheeran. I don't care. It's an opinion, something that's wonderful to love and believe in and share with like-minded people, but it's nothing to fight over. Because nobody will ever have proof that Justin Bieber's music is better or worse than Ed Sheeran's music. Just like nobody will ever be able to prove the existence or inexistence of god, or that Muslims are better than Christians or whatever. It's something you believe in, or you don't.
Therefore I don't think that religion is a good thing to use for supporting your argumentation. Whereas some things, that have been proven and are nothing to debate or have an opinion about, are. Like the fact that we are all equal, and that we all have the right to live.
I know I'm wandering a bit from the subject, just had to throw that in.

belis · January 18, 2014 12:59 pm

The Doctor wrote:
Yes, in modern times and with enlightened and scientific minds no one of us would accept a simple hero, we are actively looking for multiple layers and minor (butonly minor!) contradictions.

However, be honest and tell me how you feel about:
- watching and re-watching the show
- attending North Goweer Street aka Baker Street
- receiving an item or autograph by cast or crew
- being asked to appear on the show
- your fellow discussion board members.

My point is that these elements compare directly to:
-active contemplation of sacred text
-pilgrimage elements
-treasuring reliquias
-participating actively in a meaningful ritual
-sharing with a like-minded community
etc

I hope I found the right words to explain my point of view...

This is an interesting comparison. The crucial difference I think is that majority of the fans recognise that Sherlock is a fictional character. I'm also not sure how many use either the orginal canon or the show as a source of gudiance and moral compass, which is one of the major functions of religion.

I think what it illustrates is that people have certain needs like being a part of a community, participating in comforting rituals etc In the past religion was an outlet for that. As the society becomes more secular we need to find some other ways of fulfilling those needs. That's where hobbies and common intrests come to play.

besleybean · January 18, 2014 1:05 pm

And for me Sherlock is just that, my favourite hobby.

sj4iy · January 18, 2014 1:06 pm

The Doctor wrote:
sj4iy wrote:
The Doctor wrote:
I would settle on the point that the Moftiss/Gatiss Sherlock narrative as well as fan discussion clearly shows an obsession with a sacred moral world that one could argue is lacking in our post-Enlightenment era.

People want heroes aka people with god-like characteristics, it seems.
Actually, no. If anything, it's the complete opposite. Our heroes AREN'T perfect and there ISN'T strict moral code. Sherlock and John often break laws and cover up crimes in their line of work. Sherlock isn't a role model, nor is he a god...at heart, he's simply a man with a strong sense of right and wrong that doesn't always line up with what society deems right and wrong. I don't think there's anything 'sacred' about it.
And I argue that absolutely everything about this is sacred. Our very search for meaning in the Sherlock narrative has very strong religious parallels.

Yes, in modern times and with enlightened and scientific minds no one of us would accept a simple hero, we are actively looking for multiple layers and minor (butonly minor!) contradictions.

However, be honest and tell me how you feel about:
- watching and re-watching the show
- attending North Goweer Street aka Baker Street
- receiving an item or autograph by cast or crew
- being asked to appear on the show
- your fellow discussion board members.

My point is that these elements compare directly to:
-active contemplation of sacred text
-pilgrimage elements
-treasuring reliquias
-participating actively in a meaningful ritual
-sharing with a like-minded community
etc

I hope I found the right words to explain my point of view...

Oh, please. I watch the show, I don't worship it. There's a HUGE difference between a hobby and a religion. There's absolutely nothing sacred about it. I was talking about the story itself...Sherlock is neither a god nor even a role model...there is no moral code in the show, others than "stuff Sherlock wouldn't do"...which is very different from what the rest of us wouldn't do. If the show were to end tomorrow, I'd be a bit sad. But it wouldn't ruin my life. Is just find something else to do.

shezza · January 18, 2014 1:06 pm

The "sacrificing oneself, dying and coming back to life" kind of story isn't exlusively tied to the Judeo-Christian religion. It's a plot as old as narrative itself, basically found in every single culture, probably THE most successful type of plot (google hero's journey, monomyth etc.). It's been postulated that it strikes some chords shared by all of humanity in its collective unconscious.

The fact that some guys in the I century appropriated it for their own religious tale doesn't mean they invented it. It's just that their tale was so successful that everything that came afterwards gets compared to it.

shezza · January 18, 2014 1:08 pm

belis wrote:
I think what it illustrates is that people have certain needs like being a part of a community, participating in comforting rituals etc In the past religion was an outlet for that. As the society becomes more secular we need to find some other ways of fulfilling those needs. That's where hobbies and common intrests come to play.

This.

lil · January 18, 2014 2:39 pm

I don't think it's sposed to be preachy or too serious ..it's more amusing.
If we see it as justice..that sometimes we need to put things down..like the dog..and magnusson then that means we need people like mary and actions like sherlocks.
Mycrofts comments at the end are apt, and funny..no doubt he thinks of himself as the sharp knife and sherlock as the blunt instrument lol.

It's the classic theme and a classic joke..oh stuff this hit him over the head..haha.
Its quite neat and funny.

Last edited by lil (January 18, 2014 2:42 pm)

dartmoordoggers · January 18, 2014 3:33 pm

The sharp knife is Sherlock. When Mycroft speaks of his colleague and blunt instrument he is referring to 'M' as the colleague, and Bond as the blunt instrument.

silverblaze · January 18, 2014 7:14 pm

Oh, basically a religion is a big fandom. Though the stories are not as good.

If you want to know whether the writers intend to use religions messages, take a look at their background and previous works and see how religious they are. I haven't researched in detail but I think you'll find two atheists or agnostics.

besleybean · January 18, 2014 7:16 pm

Quite.

Sherlock Holmes · January 18, 2014 7:43 pm

Sherlock is a lot more to me than "just a show". It changed and altered my life in a really positive direction and made me into a better, stronger person not afraid to be myself and stand up for myself. It means a hell of a lot to me, more than I could put into words.

Having said the sentimental bit, I still wouldn't describe it as religious, simply because I'm not a religiously minded person; but if I had to fill out one of those forms and put my religion, I'd also find it quite amusing to put "Sherlockian", so who knows...

This is seriously off topic, btw. We could consider starting a topic called "Is Sherlock a religious/spiritual experience?" or something like that, if we wanted to discuss it further.

SusiGo · January 18, 2014 7:52 pm

Good idea, Boss. Any volunteers?

lil · January 18, 2014 7:58 pm

The writers religious beliefs are there own private business, neither are they relevant to what they have written. They only have to educated.

besleybean · January 18, 2014 8:03 pm

Or in fact to have been raised in Britain.

silverblaze · January 18, 2014 9:06 pm

lil wrote:
The writers religious beliefs are there own private business, neither are they relevant to what they have written. They only have to educated.

Oh, anyone can use religious themes and motifs. They are well known stories and can be recognised by many. I was talking about intent.

Sherli Bakerst · January 19, 2014 12:08 am

I appreciate The Doctor's comparison--it offers something to think about--though I don't really think Sherlock is a religious experience; not for me, anyway. (Though I do get carried away when I watch it. ) However, that being said, Sherlock does deal with morality and values, just like religions do. Especially HLV and what happened at the end of the episode.

sj4iy · January 19, 2014 12:18 am

Sherli Bakerst wrote:
I appreciate The Doctor's comparison--it offers something to think about--though I don't really think Sherlock is a religious experience; not for me, anyway. (Though I do get carried away when I watch it. ) However, that being said, Sherlock does deal with morality and values, just like religions do. Especially HLV and what happened at the end of the episode.

Any good story at its base deals with those issues...it has nothing to do with religion and everything to do with what it is to be human. Religion has merely attempted to address those who have wanted to know that question throughout the centuries, but it did not create the question.

silverblaze · January 19, 2014 12:33 am

sj4iy wrote:
Any good story at its base deals with those issues...it has nothing to do with religion and everything to do with what it is to be human. Religion has merely attempted to address those who have wanted to know that question throughout the centuries, but it did not create the question.

Agreed, religion and literature do the same thing. Literature tends to be a bit better at it IMHO. I suspect storytelling always had this function, even before religion, if there ever was such a time.