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February 4, 2014 12:04 pm  #101


Re: I don't like HLV - help?! / Criticism

Whisky wrote:

I personally think that this is a new development. With series 1 and 2, I felt like we were all on the same page. That's what I thought was the brilliance of these series, that they worked for nearly everyone (the hardcore canon fans, the fans of crime series, Cumberbatch/Freeman fans, occasional viewers, ...)

With series 3, I think this doesn't work anymore.

Indeed, that is the impression I am getting. Anyone else having any ideas if and how this could be the case?

 

February 4, 2014 12:49 pm  #102


Re: I don't like HLV - help?! / Criticism

The Doctor wrote:

Whisky wrote:

I personally think that this is a new development. With series 1 and 2, I felt like we were all on the same page. That's what I thought was the brilliance of these series, that they worked for nearly everyone (the hardcore canon fans, the fans of crime series, Cumberbatch/Freeman fans, occasional viewers, ...)

With series 3, I think this doesn't work anymore.

Indeed, that is the impression I am getting. Anyone else having any ideas if and how this could be the case?

 
I felt with season 3 that it strayed off path a bit. I'm sure (I hope!) there's a reason for it, and I accept completely the "it's a show about a detective, not a detective show", line from Moftiss, and if it was to provide a stepping stone into the next series and new enemies and new cases, that would be fine.
But too many seasons in the same style - focusing mainly on relationship issues would become too soap like for me.
I get that John and Sherlock have a beautiful friendship, I get that John likes women - a small nod to this every now and again amongst the crime solving would suit me fine - I really don't want each season to watch 3 ninety minute episodes that focus almost SOLELY on those issues.
The big issue I have is that I think Moftiss maybe tried to hard this season to be all things to all people (Moffat says he doesn't read fans' theories and wishes online, but no one who watched TEH can seriously believe that) and I also think that Sherlock himself has undergone too much character development too quickly - I'd hate for them to be left with nowhere to go with him.
I don't mean to sound like I hated season 3, because I didn't at all. It's just that I felt there was something missing.


"And in the end,
The Love you take
Is equal to the Love you make"
                                             The Beatles
 

February 4, 2014 1:14 pm  #103


Re: I don't like HLV - help?! / Criticism

The Doctor wrote:

Whisky wrote:

I personally think that this is a new development. With series 1 and 2, I felt like we were all on the same page. That's what I thought was the brilliance of these series, that they worked for nearly everyone (the hardcore canon fans, the fans of crime series, Cumberbatch/Freeman fans, occasional viewers, ...)

With series 3, I think this doesn't work anymore.

Indeed, that is the impression I am getting. Anyone else having any ideas if and how this could be the case?

Well, they changed a few things and since people watch the show for different reasons it's inevitable that some will react well to it and others won't. They are also dealing with incredibly high expectations, people expect to be surprised by them and also expect more of the same, impossible. Furthermore, Mary has always been a difficult character, for everyone, at least that's what they said somewhere in some interview. 

I think it's a risk they had to take, IMHO, otherwise it might have become stale and repetitive. If they had made another ASIP, or TBB, people would have been really disappointed. They had to change, develop the characters, increase the stake etcetera. 

It's hard to say from here whether that worked or not because we don't have numbers on how many people liked it and how many people didn't. The viewing figures are still good, though, so it obviously didn't destroy them. IMO, they did the right thing by changing, it worked for me and to me it shows that they are making the right creative decisions. 

 

June 29, 2014 6:06 pm  #104


Re: I don't like HLV - help?! / Criticism

Super interesting thread. Read it all and enjoyed the discussion. I also have my issues with that episode and a lot of things have already been addressed here. So what are my personal problems? The Molly hitting Sherlock scene is one, her hitting him 3 times! No way! I can understand she might have lost her temper when she found out that he was not clean and out of that initial moment of being very upset hitting him once. But three times? Someone she loves? No such way! You would stop cold after the first slap being shocked by your own action, this is my opinion. 
I also think it so out of character that Sherlock is being outwitted by Mary and CAM. While in the first 2 seasons he is always the cleverest of them all he suddenly is the one who misses the forrest for the trees all the time? 
Mary "simply" shooting Sherlock and Sherlock "simply" shooting CAM? Just like this? too much for my personal taste. Sherlock drugging his parents and his brother AND the heavily pregnant Mary, and it is no big deal? Really? 
Most of the other things have already been mentioned and i am kinda glad i am not alone. As much as i love that TV show, i simply could not bring myself to go easily along with everything i had been presented. For the time being i am not as thrilled and excited for season 4 as i was for season 3. 

 

June 29, 2014 6:17 pm  #105


Re: I don't like HLV - help?! / Criticism

Wow, that must be such a shame.
HLV is my all time favourite episode and I'm really excited about series 4.

Last edited by besleybean (June 29, 2014 6:17 pm)


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June 29, 2014 7:26 pm  #106


Re: I don't like HLV - help?! / Criticism

I love HLV too but I understand that some fans don't like it. What I don't understand is why many fans think that Sherlock was cheated by Mary? Because he didn't foresee that she was special agent who killed many people? I mean -  why should he ever suspect her? She was wife of his best friend, she was nice, clever, intelligent. I don't see any signs that chould make Sherlock even consider that something is wrong with her. So in my opinion Sherlock didn't lose with Mary - because she was never his enemy like Moriarty or Magnussen.

Last edited by MartaSt (June 29, 2014 7:27 pm)


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"Hey, chief, I might be wrong, but I think we're flying into a mountain. This makes me feel... scared of the mountain.
One thing we could do is pull up and fly over the mountain. How does that sound to...
"
 

June 29, 2014 8:23 pm  #107


Re: I don't like HLV - help?! / Criticism

But MartaSt, he doesn't only "figure out" his enemies, does he? He sees things others can't see! He must have wondered about her knowing a skip code? 
Besleybean, i can cope 

 

June 29, 2014 8:25 pm  #108


Re: I don't like HLV - help?! / Criticism

He did wonder and this is the interesting part...how much did he think about Mary, how much did he not...for John's sake?


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June 29, 2014 8:30 pm  #109


Re: I don't like HLV - help?! / Criticism

as I have written before: his greatest mistake was the overlooking Mary´s relation with Janine - and thus with Magnussen..


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..I've always assumed that love is a dangerous disadvantage. Thank you for the final proof...
 

June 29, 2014 8:35 pm  #110


Re: I don't like HLV - help?! / Criticism

I guess that could be his downfall of trying to be clever again...
Thinking he was so smart using Janine to get at CAM.
Not thinking of the coincidence of her being Mary's maid of honour.


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June 29, 2014 9:06 pm  #111


Re: I don't like HLV - help?! / Criticism

besleybean wrote:

I guess that could be his downfall of trying to be clever again...
.

but but but, if he cannot be clever anymore, what's the point?!?! 

 

June 29, 2014 9:12 pm  #112


Re: I don't like HLV - help?! / Criticism

I know Benedict has said he felt Sherlock has regressed slightly in series 3, because of being away the 2 years...though I think he meant emotionally.
I don't think S3 is so much about Sherlock being clever.
I think it's about his heart and his doing and saying things for John.


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June 29, 2014 9:15 pm  #113


Re: I don't like HLV - help?! / Criticism

As I have written before I think there is a definite storytelling arc. We start with a Sherlock who has completely suppressed his feelings in order to fully concentrate on his brainwork. After his return he cannot control his feelings any longer when trying to cope with finding back into his old life and coming to terms with losing John (in a way). I am quite sure that the creators will go on to show us how he matures and finally manages how to unite intellect and emotion. 

Last edited by SusiGo (June 29, 2014 9:17 pm)


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"To fake the death of one sibling may be regarded as a misfortune; to fake the death of both looks like carelessness." Oscar Wilde about Mycroft Holmes

"It is what it is says love." (Erich Fried)

“Enjoy the journey of life and not just the endgame. I’m also a great believer in treating others as you would like to be treated.” (Benedict Cumberbatch)



 
 

June 29, 2014 9:17 pm  #114


Re: I don't like HLV - help?! / Criticism

I think so too.


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June 29, 2014 11:42 pm  #115


Re: I don't like HLV - help?! / Criticism

I adore this episode. It was like a pleasant punch in the solar plexus, left me gasping and very satisfied.

We have to remember that we've seen Sherlock 'slow' many times before. It took him ages to figure out he was looking for a taxi driver in SIP; he was so eager to try to be clever in following Van Coon's last day that John got the answers before Sherlock did; he underestimated Irene in their initial encounter (lost the phone and got his arse whooped); he got Moriarty's motives completely wrong in TGG (thought Moriarty wanted the plans when they were a red herring); he was fixated on the sugar in THOB; and I'm convinced that he was about ten steps behind Moriarty in TRBF. Need I go on?

Mary and CAM played him the way Moriarty played him. Because Moriarty always got the best of Sherlock, I have no doubt that there are others who could pull a fast one like that over him. Irene confounded Sherlock by not giving him any information/distracting him with her nudity. Mary confounded Sherlock by flooding him with information and being very masterful in drawing him and John back together. CAM got the best of Sherlock because Sherlock thinks he's so clever and underestimated his enemy again. Really, we've seen all of this before but, frankly, I think it was done better this time around.

In this series, Sherlock is trying to fit back into his world and come to terms with his two years away. He cannot possibly be the same person he was before. The single biggest realisation he has in this series is how much he matters to the people who matter to him and how much his behaviour affects their lives. Series three is very much about Sherlock growing up.

Mary


John: That's clever. So you scratch their backs and...
Sherlock: Yes. And then disinfect myself.
 

June 30, 2014 3:26 pm  #116


Re: I don't like HLV - help?! / Criticism

Yes, you must see HLV as the continuation of a long emotional story-line arc. To me the whole of Series 3 is one long apology to John for what he did to him with the "Fall" and also Sherlock's realization of what his friends mean to him - especially John. In fact, in TSoT we see him ultimatley reject Mycroft's "don't get involved" warnings and see him turn toward John instead, "It's you! You keep me right!" In TSoT he vows to always protect John (and Mary) and in HLV we see him fulfill that vow - potentially sacrifycing himself completely for it. He is becoming that "good man" Lestrade predicted he might become all the way back in the first episode.


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And I said "dangerous" and here you are.

You. It's always you. John Watson, you keep me right.

 

June 30, 2014 3:41 pm  #117


Re: I don't like HLV - help?! / Criticism

Wonderfully said, KP. 


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"To fake the death of one sibling may be regarded as a misfortune; to fake the death of both looks like carelessness." Oscar Wilde about Mycroft Holmes

"It is what it is says love." (Erich Fried)

“Enjoy the journey of life and not just the endgame. I’m also a great believer in treating others as you would like to be treated.” (Benedict Cumberbatch)



 
 

June 30, 2014 5:25 pm  #118


Re: I don't like HLV - help?! / Criticism

KeepersPrice wrote:

Yes, you must see HLV as the continuation of a long emotional story-line arc.

This is exactly how I feel. By the time we get to the tarmac, Sherlock has grown into the good man Lestrade hoped he would be one day. I commented in another thread that I would have been very satisifed had the series ended with Sherlock flying off to his death because his emotional story arc was completed. I feel even more that way now that I've read the ACD canon and can see that Moftiss, intentionally or not, have been growing Sherlock to have him reach the original Holmes' temperament.

I don't feel quite the same amount of resolution in regards to John's character, however. So bring on series four!

Mary


John: That's clever. So you scratch their backs and...
Sherlock: Yes. And then disinfect myself.
 

June 30, 2014 6:01 pm  #119


Re: I don't like HLV - help?! / Criticism

maryagrawatson, you cut right to the heart of the matter when you said:

“In this series, Sherlock is trying to fit back into his world and come to terms with his two years away. He cannot possibly be the same person he was before. The single biggest realisation he has in this series is how much he matters to the people who matter to him and how much his behaviour affects their lives. Series three is very much about Sherlock growing up.”

Ditto for KeepersPrice’s comment:

“He is becoming that "good man" Lestrade predicted he might become all the way back in the first episode.”

I’m a 65 year-old teenaged boy (so to speak), and I’ve watched myself change in both good and bad ways for the last six decades.  Some of the good things about myself have tried to slip away, and some of the bad things have tried to creep up from behind.  It’s a constant struggle to pat my soul back into shape each year.

Despite all the ways Sherlock is above average, he’s still a human being, and what human beings do is start out life one way and then constantly change, whether they like it not.

What Sherlock is doing is the same thing we all do – evaluate our personal priorities each day and then make compromises every time we realize we can’t have that damn cake and eat it too. Life is comprised of choosing the best option from the good ones, or the lesser of two evils from the bad ones.

Fans tend to want a beloved characters to stay just the way they were when they fell in love with them. Sadly that just doesn’t work if the series last long enough to include a sizable chunk of the characters’ lives.  Stuff happens, people are affected by it, life goes on, and nobody looks exactly the same in the mirror as they did last year.

So, we all know Sherlock will learn hard and valuable lessons from life, love, and everyone around him, and he’ll change because of this.  And we should remember that sometimes people go off in wrong directions, realize they’re lost, and come back.

Sherlock seems to be changing just like real people do. The changes are interesting – but for everything new you acquire, something old goes on the yard sale table out front.  We’ll just have to wait and see if each episode's “new” Sherlock has added something we like, without selling off something we miss too much.

Does any of this make sense?  I recently gave up drinking, and I think it’s impairing my judgment. 
 

Last edited by Bruce Cook (July 1, 2014 3:28 am)


A good debate is like a fencing match — you don't have to win to get a good workout.
 

June 30, 2014 6:27 pm  #120


Re: I don't like HLV - help?! / Criticism

Stay off the booze, it keeps our minds clear!
EDIT: by which I mean, good post!
Oh and you make me feel young!

Last edited by besleybean (June 30, 2014 6:28 pm)


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