Ozma wrote:

Aytoun wrote:

Ozma wrote:

There won't be an explanation, not for this. I think this whole thing isn't over - look at how many of us are upset/confused/angry at her - she needs to redeem herself, because technically she is not a villain. Look at what they made Sherlock do to pay for having hurt John so much. I do believe they didn't put all this in the story just for it to become a footnote in John and Mary's happy life together.
But- they will not expand on this, I don't think.

As for the previous point, about her not being able to kill CAM because she didn't know of his mind palace - what was her plan then?
Can you honestly believe she waited MONTHS after he sent her those texts and put John into a bloody bonfire, befriended his PA, and possibly other things, just to throw all this down the toilet by just strolling into his office one day and then panicking about being found out? No, come on.
 
What did she intend to do?
And anyway…by shooting Sherlock she just added to CAM’s info about her and gave him more ammunition. COME.ON. Really? The first thing John does, THE VERY FIRST THING when he sees S on the floor is to bark, Who shot him!?
 
I thought she was supposed to be clever? Doesn’t seem like that to me?
Even CAM smirks at that.  Even him.
 
This to me just looks like a plot device to make everything more dramatic. Anyone who writes fanfics has done it before – you want to add something for drama, something which sounds romantic and super angsty, and you do it even though you perfectly realise there are some points that don’t connect.
 
I don’t think Moffat can afford that. Come on. He is better than that.

I agreed completely with your analysis of the shooting scene. Whatever we think about Mary and I unlike you do see her as a villain, shooting Sherlock to wound and letting CAM witness it and live just doesn't make sense. Her only real option when Sherlock walked in was to kill them both - not that I wanted Sherlock dead but what she actually does is only for dramatic effect. It just doesn't hold together as logical storytelling.

She doesn't only have one option. The wise option would have been to knock CAM out and then ask Sherlock for help. She asked him to not say anything to John when he was in a bloody hospital bed, and possibly understandably pissed at her for shooting him and not willing to help her; why couldn’t she just ask him before that? Instead of shooting him and possibly antagonising him?
What makes her think that this would make it easier for her?
Both options were of course going to be hard, but asking him without shooting him would have worked much better than asking him after having shot him, sent him into surgery, attracted everybody’s attention on what happened, and of course prompted John to ask questions. She was lucky Sherlock was willing to see it from her point of view then – VERY lucky.
 
It just doesn’t make any sense, and if she didn’t actually mean to kill him (which, let’s face, would have made it much easier for her to keep the secret!), then it does make me think that it was just a way to add drama, which wouldn’t be that bad if it didn’t sacrifice plausibility.
 

No, she had to escape quickly so that John wouldn't find her.  Her primary motivation at THAT point is now to hide from John.  If she does anything less than incapacitate Sherlock for several days, then she won't have enough time to talk with him and try to convince him to not tell John.  She didn't want him to die...like Sherlock said, what she did was 'surgery'.  Surgery to knock him out long enough to talk with him about what he knows.  If she left Sherlock conscious, he would have almost certainly gone after her or told John, and she didn't want that.  She had to shoot him in a place that would keep him from doing that.

Last edited by sj4iy (January 14, 2014 1:58 pm)

Ozma wrote:

but why? Do you really think if she said, Sherlock I need your help, please don't tell John, Sherlock wouldn't have understood immediately and let her escape, in order to talk to her later?
it's not like Sherlock didn't have suspicions about her before that, and yet he hadn't said a word to John. Do you really, honestly think he would have had then!? Why? She was finally going to confess, and Sherlock would have been able to help his friend and that would have avoided John some heartbreak - for example of knowing his wife shot his best friend.

Also, she wanted to incapacitate him in order to have more time to speak to him? I don't think she would have had more time. He was unconscious for most of the time, and then when he woke up all she did was tell him not to say anything - which she could have done to begin with!

Everything she did just made the situation unnecessarily worse. It wasn’t needed. She messed up.

I already stated several times in this very thread that his biggest mistake was that she didn't trust Sherlock...but given her past, it's easy to see why.  I'm not saying what she SHOULD have done...that's simply a hypothetical argument that goes nowhere.  I'm saying why she did what she did from her point of view.  If you can't see it from her point of view, you won't understand why she did what she did.  When you see it from her POV, it's pretty clear.
 

Last edited by sj4iy (January 14, 2014 2:17 pm)

Looking for the logical explanation....
As a huge fan of the writers, and having faith in what they do, and thanking them for the best thing on tv in decades...  I think in the end we must.. look for the logical explanation and have faith in them ,and that they know what they are doing. In particular with Mary.
So looking back on Mary's story arch from the start I have a few final thoughts.

When she was introduced ,we all instantly liked and related with her , when she said " I'l talk him round." and " I like him." we all fell into the we like @ relate to Mary trap as intended. Yes yes we think that ! and we too like Sherlock ! and we too want John and Sherlock reconciled and back... being John and Sherlock .
As her story line progressed we related more... planning weddings and folding napkins with Sherlock..encouraging them to go off out on a run..adventure . The cutesy Mary sue moments..oh whoa yes we like her , we want to be her ,we relate to that don't we?
( like lambs to the slaughter.....)
However by the time we get to the end of her story ...we can longer relate . Why? Had she , as in canon , shot this evil disgusting blackmailer and had sh/jw witnessed the whole thing from behind the curtain...then yes whoa, we can relate thats all fine , thats forgivable. That would be no problem.
But she didn't , she shot Sherlock. so we are hmmmm. Can we relate to that ?
Then to add to that, we are given the addition that , thats what she does.. her past is so shockingly horrible no one could/would love her if they knew . A cia agent/assasin/ killer for hire that shoots Sherlock. It is all very bad.
 Can we relate to that and do we even want to?
 Hmm now its all a bit messy and complicated isn't it . For most of us it is no .
So ok if this is intentional ... why ?

When contrasted with Sherlocks arch in this story , and the relationship between him and John we see how things should be...it is so beautiful and perfect...protecting each other ...the loss...the sacrifices made for each other...how to forgive each other..the mutual need and incompleteness they have without and for each other. The trust, and the honesty , and the selflessness.
Every box we tick Wrong! for Mary , we Tick Right! for Sherlock !
John says something like " I see what you are doing , this is how a loving happy relationship looks..."
John is referring to Sherlocks parents ...but we are supposed to see the contrast between John/Sherlock and John/Mary.As many of us have , it is quite blindingly obvious.

So I wonder ...Is this all some kind of metaphorical oxymoron ... are we all supposed to think ...
Look at what happens when you add sex , lies and misstrust into the mix of a relationship ? Everything becomes messed up and complicated and murky..and theres procreation and all sorts of other considerations. Maybe this is what Johnlock would look like?

As fans and viewers ...perhaps we have been taken right where they wanted to take us ... thinking yeah the Mary/John is messed up and Wrong! And all be back rooting for and wishing for things to go back to Sherlock/John and the true story.

By getting us all to think about JohnIock , I wonder if this is a kind of fore shadowing .. after all to complete the arch/metaphor we need to complete the perfect relationship , the better relationship , the Sherlock/John but done properly in a non messed up way. hmmmm

Is that what they all want us to want ? or at least think about ?
Was the picture/fan art of Sherlock/John kissing so loudly and proudly displayed in pride of place on Anderson's (the fans) mantle place , ( TEH 01.18 its lol) literally John and Sherlock.... on the shelf. 

 To have the millions of fans and viewers and randomers that watch bbcSherlock all rooting for a John/Sherlock choice , because its the Right! choice , could be the /endgame.
 
Sorry for the long post , but wow what what a wonderful and thoughtful thread this has been......

 

Sj4iy@really? Why not ?

In a story about the relationship between 2 men that live together on/off  for decades happily...and in my post contrasting that relationship with the one they have with Mary.. why not?
Surely it is relevant...we are no longer in the Victorian era after all.
The writers themselves have been addressing it since s01e01 .
Yes it is a running joke and makes for much amusement on the surface..but surely we are suposed to go a little deeper than that?

lil wrote:

Looking for the logical explanation....
As a huge fan of the writers, and having faith in what they do, and thanking them for the best thing on tv in decades...  I think in the end we must.. look for the logical explanation and have faith in them ,and that they know what they are doing. In particular with Mary.
So looking back on Mary's story arch from the start I have a few final thoughts.

When she was introduced ,we all instantly liked and related with her , when she said " I'l talk him round." and " I like him." we all fell into the we like @ relate to Mary trap as intended. Yes yes we think that ! and we too like Sherlock ! and we too want John and Sherlock reconciled and back... being John and Sherlock .
As her story line progressed we related more... planning weddings and folding napkins with Sherlock..encouraging them to go off out on a run..adventure . The cutesy Mary sue moments..oh whoa yes we like her , we want to be her ,we relate to that don't we?
( like lambs to the slaughter.....)
However by the time we get to the end of her story ...we can longer relate . Why? Had she , as in canon , shot this evil disgusting blackmailer and had sh/jw witnessed the whole thing from behind the curtain...then yes whoa, we can relate thats all fine , thats forgivable. That would be no problem.
But she didn't , she shot Sherlock. so we are hmmmm. Can we relate to that ?
Then to add to that, we are given the addition that , thats what she does.. her past is so shockingly horrible no one could/would love her if they knew . A cia agent/assasin/ killer for hire that shoots Sherlock. It is all very bad.
 Can we relate to that and do we even want to?
 Hmm now its all a bit messy and complicated isn't it . For most of us it is no .
So ok if this is intentional ... why ?

When contrasted with Sherlocks arch in this story , and the relationship between him and John we see how things should be...it is so beautiful and perfect...protecting each other ...the loss...the sacrifices made for each other...how to forgive each other..the mutual need and incompleteness they have without and for each other. The trust, and the honesty , and the selflessness.
Every box we tick Wrong! for Mary , we Tick Right! for Sherlock !
John says something like " I see what you are doing , this is how a loving happy relationship looks..."
John is referring to Sherlocks parents ...but we are supposed to see the contrast between John/Sherlock and John/Mary.As many of us have , it is quite blindingly obvious.

So I wonder ...Is this all some kind of metaphorical oxymoron ... are we all supposed to think ...
Look at what happens when you add sex , lies and misstrust into the mix of a relationship ? Everything becomes messed up and complicated and murky..and theres procreation and all sorts of other considerations. Maybe this is what Johnlock would look like?

As fans and viewers ...perhaps we have been taken right where they wanted to take us ... thinking yeah the Mary/John is messed up and Wrong! And all be back rooting for and wishing for things to go back to Sherlock/John and the true story.

By getting us all to think about JohnIock , I wonder if this is a kind of fore shadowing .. after all to complete the arch/metaphor we need to complete the perfect relationship , the better relationship , the Sherlock/John but done properly in a non messed up way. hmmmm

Is that what they all want us to want ? or at least think about ?
Was the picture/fan art of Sherlock/John kissing so loudly and proudly displayed in pride of place on Anderson's (the fans) mantle place , ( TEH 01.18 its lol) literally John and Sherlock.... on the shelf. 

 To have the millions of fans and viewers and randomers that watch bbcSherlock all rooting for a John/Sherlock choice , because its the Right! choice , could be the /endgame.
 
Sorry for the long post , but wow what what a wonderful and thoughtful thread this has been......

 

Holy shit Anderson has a Johnlock picture on his mantle? I'm going to a theatre showing of TEH on Thursday and will look for it!

I see that inclusion as more what they think of the "crazy" fans, rather than any foreshadowing of the direction they plan to go. As BC said at the BFI event, such a thing is "absurd."

But I agree the John & Sherlock relationship is the perfect one. :-)
 

shezza wrote:

Sherlock and John love each other no doubt, I just don't think they want to have sex with each other or cuddle on the sofa whispering sweet nothings to each other. That's the difference between John's relationship with Sherlock and John's relationship with Mary.

And it's also one of the reasons I like Sherlock so much - a series based on friendship and companionship of the best kind even in an Aristotelic sense, not on boring romantic longing or bedroom action.

 
Yes this..I think so too..I think the point is supposed to be something like how irrelevant and silly sex is.... in the end in the perfect relationship..we love who we love no matter sexual id or gender and showing the things tht really matter... trust...honesty...sacrifice etc.

shezza wrote:

Sherlock and John love each other no doubt, I just don't think they want to have sex with each other or cuddle on the sofa whispering sweet nothings to each other. That's the difference between John's relationship with Sherlock and John's relationship with Mary.

And it's also one of the reasons I like Sherlock so much - a series based on friendship and companionship of the best kind even in an Aristotelic sense, not on boring romantic longing or bedroom action.

Completely agreed!

Hey there I wanted to say what I think about Mary and after reading the last two pages I NEED to, really. So the thing is, I loved her. Everything about her, she was flawless. I did notice (as everybody did I think) the "liar" label when she was being analized by Sherlock. I didn't care a lot, everybody lies.But then it comes the idea that she killed "innocent people", not only moved by values, but for a price too. So, a hired assassin. I really would think twice before judging someone who killed people in desperate situations, in self-defense or insurmountable fear. But for a prize, that's serious. I can't imagine how John came to the conclussion that he could live knowing that but unknowing everything else.

Not to mention that she shot Sherlock. She threatened first, and Sherlock trusted. The thing is, she had a choice. And she aimed the stomach. Yeah, dying from a bullet in the stomach is a slow process, but still deadly. If Sherlock had fallen forward? If the ambulance had not arrived? He died, in fact, and revived by his own will. I'm pissed. I think John should have read the USB, honestly. Not knowing what  your wife has made before leaves you wondering what she is capable of. Beautiful words he said, really, but I don't believe a thing.  And the thing is, I still like Mary... but I can't understand how they trust her, I just can't. Where's the logical behavior here?

I really hope they're not going to leave things like this. I still don't understand why she got pregnant (given that -Spoilers from the books!!- she dies in the books with no kid at all).

I want all of this THOROUGHLY REFLECTED by John Watson, not just a couple of days and a burnt USB.  

Last edited by Amy Airiel (January 14, 2014 8:59 pm)

Amy Airiel wrote:

I want all of this THOROUGHLY REFLECTED by John Watson, not just a couple of days and a burnt USB.  

 
Was it not a couple of months that have elapsed? It seemed to be summer time when Sherlock got shot and Christmas when John and Mery had the USB conversation. So that is a considerable length of time to think things true.

Last edited by belis (January 14, 2014 8:50 pm)

Ozma wrote:

belis wrote:

Amy Airiel wrote:

I want all of this THOROUGHLY REFLECTED by John Watson, not just a couple of days and a burnt USB.  

 
Was it not a couple of months that have elapsed? It seemed to be summer time when Sherlock got shot and Christmas when John and Mery had the USB conversation. So that is a considerable length of time to think things true.

yes, it was a few months...

The wedding was apparently in May so HLV occurs in June (John hasn't seen Sherlock in a month according to Mary). John forgives her on Xmas day so yeah, he had about 6 months to think about it. 

I have a question: where has John being living during those months? With Mary or back at Baker Street?