BBC Sherlock Fan Forum - Serving Sherlockians since February 2012.
- besleybean
- Threatened Knighthood
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- From: Carnoustie, Angus, Scotland.
- Registered: October 4, 2012
- Posts: 21,343
Re: Mary
I think it was coincidence.
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- sj4iy
- High Functioning Sociopath
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- From: USA
- Registered: June 12, 2013
- Posts: 2,692
Re: Mary
Aytoun wrote:
Well, I’ve got one big problem with Mary, she a murderer.
So are Sherlock and John. Sounds like a match made in heaven to me.
__________________________________________________________________Bigby: Will you shut up?
Colin: Well, maybe if my throat wasn’t so parched, I wouldn’t have to keep talking.
Bigby: Wait, that doesn’t make se-
Coline: Just give me a drink, please.
- Mary Me
- High Functioning Sociopath
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- From: Germany, Bonn
- Registered: January 8, 2013
- Posts: 3,250
Re: Mary
Well, I’ve got one big problem with Mary, she a murderer.
So are Sherlock and John. Sounds like a match made in heaven to me.
The detective, the soldier and the agent.
There now. I've just seen the episode and I'll give a short review on Mary.
When she shot Sherlock and threatened him not to tell John, I seriously hated her. However, when they discovered her past and her business with CAM I was not so angry anymore. And when it turned out that Mary had exactly calculated the shot and knew that it wouldn't kill him I was fine. I still like her.
It's fine if you don't like her anymore but you have to think ahead. We've got a professional agent around now. She might be useful in the future. 
Months ago, I had an idea for a fan fiction but because I'm a terrible writer I only managed to write a few scenes although the complete storyline always stuck in my head. In my story Mary was a M16 agent and there was also a scene where the villain teases John about his wife being a murderer. I love how a part of that story suddenly became canon. My Mary was very different though. She came to Sherlock and John as a client and Sherlock could immediately tell that she was an agent by bruises on her skin being evidence of a form of torture only used in Korea.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"Falling is just like flying, except there’s a more permanent destination."
"Sherlock Holmes is a great man, and I think one day—if we’re very very lucky—he might even be a good one."
"Would you like to-"
"-have dinner?"
"-solve crimes?"
"Oh"
- LoveBug54
- The Game Is On
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- From: Minnesota
- Registered: June 7, 2012
- Posts: 65
Re: Mary
Well, I’ve got one big problem with Mary, she a murderer. Leaving her shooting of Sherlock aside for a moment she has by her own admission committed crimes for which she would spend the rest of her life in prison. Is this woman worthy of John’s love and Sherlock’s protection? Personally, I don’t think so. John may be attracted to dangerous people and situations, perhaps as a symptom of his PTSD, but there’s a world of difference between him shooting the taxi driver in ‘Study in Pink’ to save Sherlock and literally getting into bed with a contract killer.
Nor do you save someone’s life my shooting them at point blank range and then phoning an ambulance. Okay, Mary could have gone for a head shot or a heart shot and finished Sherlock instantly, but at best she was gambling on his survival and he nearly didn’t make it. Incidentally, I don’t see why she would shoot to wound, if she didn’t want Sherlock dead so that he couldn’t betray her to John there was no point in her pulling the trigger.
Sherlock and John have always been ultimately on the side of the angels and this is where the shielding of Mary makes me really uncomfortable. It opens them up to accusations of hypocrisy every time they apprehend a murderer or wax lyrical about how evil Magnusson and Moriarty are or were. How can they claim the moral high ground when they’re protecting an assassin? Sherlock may have ensured Mary’s safety, but I’m far from convinced that Mary deserves to be safe.
Word. This is why I don't like what they've done with Mary' s character. They could have come up with some other "hold" CAM had over her but then they couldn't make the point that John was attracted to bad girls. I'm sorry, but to me finding out my spouse had lied to me about something so monstrous would be a deal-breaker. So, yeah, I don't like what they are doing to John's character, either. And now Sherlock is a murderer.
- beekeeper
- John's Army
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- Registered: March 24, 2013
- Posts: 381
Re: Mary
Its just occured to me, that in the brilliance that is Moftiss, Mary is not going to die. Not ever. And nor is her child.
Why? Because these guys almost delight in not giving the fandom what they want but rather making us realise that their way is actually the best way. That things ARE better with Mary. (ok I know not everyone agrees...)
If this were Dr Who, somehow, there would be a flashforward to the day Mary buries John after a long and happy life together.
OTOH this will be one well protected kid.
Re comments above about her being a killer. I need to rewatch the episode (damn you, employment!) but I agree that this is unsettling and I somehow hadn't really appreciated that. How do you forgive someone for being a mass murderer? Anyway, will have another look.
Its really not canon, thats the only slight issue I have. Not with it not being canon per se but with how it will work with future episodes. Obviously there are some cannonical stories where Watson's wife is mentioned (though not as many as you might think). I just wonder how they will weave in a role for Mary. But to be fair, that hasn't stopped them at all so far.
Last edited by beekeeper (January 13, 2014 6:19 pm)
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Sherlock Holmes "The question is, has she been working on something deadlier than a rabbit?"
John Watson : "To be fair, that is quite a wide field"
The Hounds of Baskerville
- Mary Me
- High Functioning Sociopath
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- From: Germany, Bonn
- Registered: January 8, 2013
- Posts: 3,250
Re: Mary
John still loves Mary and she carries his baby. It is not a question whether she deserves to be loved, she just is. There is a new situation now and they have to deal with it. Although he forgives her, John will always feel betrayed and he will never be able to forget.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"Falling is just like flying, except there’s a more permanent destination."
"Sherlock Holmes is a great man, and I think one day—if we’re very very lucky—he might even be a good one."
"Would you like to-"
"-have dinner?"
"-solve crimes?"
"Oh"
- Mary Me
- High Functioning Sociopath
Offline
- From: Germany, Bonn
- Registered: January 8, 2013
- Posts: 3,250
Re: Mary
Re comments above about her being a killer. I need to rewatch the episode (damn you, employment!) but I agree that this is unsettling and I somehow hadn't really appreciated that. How do you forgive someone for being a mass murderer? Anyway, will have another look.
John was a soldier and killed many people. No one would ever blame him for that because killing people as a soldier in the name of your country is something that people have understanding for.
I'm completely lacking details about Mary's past but has it always been her choice to kill people?
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"Falling is just like flying, except there’s a more permanent destination."
"Sherlock Holmes is a great man, and I think one day—if we’re very very lucky—he might even be a good one."
"Would you like to-"
"-have dinner?"
"-solve crimes?"
"Oh"
- sj4iy
- High Functioning Sociopath
Offline
- From: USA
- Registered: June 12, 2013
- Posts: 2,692
Re: Mary
Re comments above about her being a killer. I need to rewatch the episode (damn you, employment!) but I agree that this is unsettling and I somehow hadn't really appreciated that. How do you forgive someone for being a mass murderer? Anyway, will have another look.
John was a soldier and killed many people. No one would ever blame him for that because killing people as a soldier in the name of your country is something that people have understanding for.
I'm completely lacking details about Mary's past but has it always been her choice to kill people?
If, as Sherlock said, she was an Intelligence Agent, then no, it wasn't her choice.
__________________________________________________________________Bigby: Will you shut up?
Colin: Well, maybe if my throat wasn’t so parched, I wouldn’t have to keep talking.
Bigby: Wait, that doesn’t make se-
Coline: Just give me a drink, please.
- Ozma
- Mycroft's Contact
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- Registered: January 5, 2014
- Posts: 551
Re: Mary
Re comments above about her being a killer. I need to rewatch the episode (damn you, employment!) but I agree that this is unsettling and I somehow hadn't really appreciated that. How do you forgive someone for being a mass murderer? Anyway, will have another look.
John was a soldier and killed many people. No one would ever blame him for that because killing people as a soldier in the name of your country is something that people have understanding for.
I'm completely lacking details about Mary's past but has it always been her choice to kill people?
You mean, it wasn't self defence?
No. She was a hired assassin. And since she told John that he was going to stop loving her if he read the file, I highly doubt she was only killing mean people for the greater good of the planet...
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Thread Starter- Mary Me
- High Functioning Sociopath
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- From: Germany, Bonn
- Registered: January 8, 2013
- Posts: 3,250
Re: Mary
Re comments above about her being a killer. I need to rewatch the episode (damn you, employment!) but I agree that this is unsettling and I somehow hadn't really appreciated that. How do you forgive someone for being a mass murderer? Anyway, will have another look.
John was a soldier and killed many people. No one would ever blame him for that because killing people as a soldier in the name of your country is something that people have understanding for.
I'm completely lacking details about Mary's past but has it always been her choice to kill people?
If, as Sherlock said, she was an Intelligence Agent, then no, it wasn't her choice.
So, like John, she did it to protect her country. More or less.
Last edited by Mary Me (January 13, 2014 6:29 pm)
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"Falling is just like flying, except there’s a more permanent destination."
"Sherlock Holmes is a great man, and I think one day—if we’re very very lucky—he might even be a good one."
"Would you like to-"
"-have dinner?"
"-solve crimes?"
"Oh"
- Mattlocked
- One More Miracle
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- From: Germany
- Registered: June 29, 2012
- Posts: 6,781
Re: Mary
But if so, why should he stop loving her, if he knew more?
__________________________________
"After all this time?" "Always."
Good bye, Lord Rickman of the Alan
- Ozma
- Mycroft's Contact
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- Registered: January 5, 2014
- Posts: 551
Re: Mary
John was a soldier and killed many people. No one would ever blame him for that because killing people as a soldier in the name of your country is something that people have understanding for.
I'm completely lacking details about Mary's past but has it always been her choice to kill people?
If, as Sherlock said, she was an Intelligence Agent, then no, it wasn't her choice.
So, like John, she did it to protect her country. More or less.
well, no - this to me is just an attempt to swipe everything under the carpet...
She could have been paid to kill for many reasons. Bad people, good people. Not just to protect the country - though that she was an Intellingence Agent doesn't necessarily mean she worked for the good of the country... more for the good of the government...
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Thread Starter- Mary Me
- High Functioning Sociopath
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- From: Germany, Bonn
- Registered: January 8, 2013
- Posts: 3,250
Re: Mary
But if so, why should he stop loving her, if he knew more?
She is afraid that he would think her too cruel. Knowing it is the one thing, seeing and having evidence for it is something else. He did not read the file to show her that he doesn't care.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"Falling is just like flying, except there’s a more permanent destination."
"Sherlock Holmes is a great man, and I think one day—if we’re very very lucky—he might even be a good one."
"Would you like to-"
"-have dinner?"
"-solve crimes?"
"Oh"
- Ozma
- Mycroft's Contact
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- Registered: January 5, 2014
- Posts: 551
Re: Mary
But if so, why should he stop loving her, if he knew more?
because what was on that file was terrible?
if even she herself says so...
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Thread Starter- Mary Me
- High Functioning Sociopath
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- From: Germany, Bonn
- Registered: January 8, 2013
- Posts: 3,250
Re: Mary
If, as Sherlock said, she was an Intelligence Agent, then no, it wasn't her choice.So, like John, she did it to protect her country. More or less.
well, no - this to me is just an attempt to swipe everything under the carpet...
She could have been paid to kill for many reasons. Bad people, good people. Not just to protect the country - though that she was an Intellingence Agent doesn't necessarily mean she worked for the good of the country... more for the good of the government...
Mary wanted to kill Magnussen because he was a threat. She knew threat and wanted to eliminate it. You could also go and pick on Mycroft because the government protects criminals like CAM for selfish reasons.
In the end, it's all a matter of perspective.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"Falling is just like flying, except there’s a more permanent destination."
"Sherlock Holmes is a great man, and I think one day—if we’re very very lucky—he might even be a good one."
"Would you like to-"
"-have dinner?"
"-solve crimes?"
"Oh"
- Ozma
- Mycroft's Contact
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- Registered: January 5, 2014
- Posts: 551
Re: Mary
Oh yes, of course I pick on Mycroft, Mycroft is ruthless.
But Mary didn't want to 'kill Magnussen because he was a threat', she didn't do it for the greater good, she was doing it because he had dirt on her that he was threatening to reveal.
It's different.
We can forget some details and bring up others about Mary in the hope that she will come out looking better, but she is still not a hero so we can't possibly make her into one.
Last edited by Ozma (January 13, 2014 6:39 pm)
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Thread Starter- Mary Me
- High Functioning Sociopath
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- From: Germany, Bonn
- Registered: January 8, 2013
- Posts: 3,250
Re: Mary
Oh yes, of course I pick on Mycroft, Mycroft is ruthless.
But Mary didn't want to 'kill Magnussen because he was a threat', she didn't do it for the greater good, she was doing it because he had dirt on her that he was threatening to reveal.
Yes, he was a threat to her 
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"Falling is just like flying, except there’s a more permanent destination."
"Sherlock Holmes is a great man, and I think one day—if we’re very very lucky—he might even be a good one."
"Would you like to-"
"-have dinner?"
"-solve crimes?"
"Oh"
- Ozma
- Mycroft's Contact
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- Registered: January 5, 2014
- Posts: 551
Re: Mary
Oh yes, of course I pick on Mycroft, Mycroft is ruthless.
But Mary didn't want to 'kill Magnussen because he was a threat', she didn't do it for the greater good, she was doing it because he had dirt on her that he was threatening to reveal.Yes, he was a threat to her
exactly.
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Thread Starter- Mary Me
- High Functioning Sociopath
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- From: Germany, Bonn
- Registered: January 8, 2013
- Posts: 3,250
Re: Mary
Oh yes, of course I pick on Mycroft, Mycroft is ruthless.
But Mary didn't want to 'kill Magnussen because he was a threat', she didn't do it for the greater good, she was doing it because he had dirt on her that he was threatening to reveal.
It's different.
We can forget some details and bring up others about Mary in the hope that she will come out looking better, but she is still not a hero so we can't possibly make her into one.
She is not a hero, I agree with you. Neither is Sherlock.
See, this is the reason why I like this show and this episode in particular. No black and white. You are completely torn and you try to justify why your favorite characters did what they did. Moffat and Gatiss say "Screw that a character can only be accepted if they act morally correctly." It was a very brave thing of them to do. Matter of perspective, again.
Last edited by Mary Me (January 13, 2014 6:51 pm)
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"Falling is just like flying, except there’s a more permanent destination."
"Sherlock Holmes is a great man, and I think one day—if we’re very very lucky—he might even be a good one."
"Would you like to-"
"-have dinner?"
"-solve crimes?"
"Oh"
- Ozma
- Mycroft's Contact
Offline
- Registered: January 5, 2014
- Posts: 551
Re: Mary
Oh yes, of course I pick on Mycroft, Mycroft is ruthless.
But Mary didn't want to 'kill Magnussen because he was a threat', she didn't do it for the greater good, she was doing it because he had dirt on her that he was threatening to reveal.
It's different.
We can forget some details and bring up others about Mary in the hope that she will come out looking better, but she is still not a hero so we can't possibly make her into one.She is not a hero, I agree with you. Neither is Sherlock.
See, this is the reason why I like this show and this episode in particular. No black and white. You are completely torn and you try to justify why your favorite characters did what they did. Moffat and Gatiss say "Screw that a character can only be accepted if they act morally correctly." It was a very brave thing of them to do. Matter of perspective, again.
yes, ok, this is true when we say that these characters are not perfect and are flawed.
but I don't think we can really compare Sherlock to Mary.
Sherlock did kill someone, he could have not, but he saw it as a last resort and it wasn't his initial plan even though CAM is apparently the person he hates the most.
Mary went around for years killing people because she got paid to do it.
Just not the same, sorry.
Last edited by Ozma (January 13, 2014 6:56 pm)
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Thread Starter