Ozma wrote:

Yes it was an analogy, I know, but the difference is just too immense between the two points! Of course it would have been normal to not want to know about Mary's previous boyfriends - my boyfriend doesn't want to know, but if one day I rock up to him saying 'Oh by way, I killed a man once, but I didn't tell you as I thought you weren't interested', I don't think he would just not react to that!

I dare say you're right. The other thing that really bothers me is that by lying about her past, Mary is creating a very real, tangible threat to the lives of John, her unborn child, everyone around her. If anyone finds out who she is--what she's done, you can bet that people wanting revenge, payback-- will follow. 

There could be some deadly fallout if (when) Mary's chickens come home to roost. And those kept in the dark about her past could be the collatteral damage. 

sj4iy wrote:

Ozma wrote:

Yes it was an analogy, I know, but the difference is just too immense between the two points! Of course it would have been normal to not want to know about Mary's previous boyfriends - my boyfriend doesn't want to know, but if one day I rock up to him saying 'Oh by way, I killed a man once, but I didn't tell you as I thought you weren't interested', I don't think he would just not react to that!

John and Mary don't live in the normal world like you or me.  Both of them probably have a laundry list a mile long of horrible things they have done.  But why would they act any different from normal people as far being willfully ignorant of each other's pasts?  His hands aren't clean, either, and it's complete and utter hypocrisy for him to demand that of her.  And he knows it.  He loved her for the danger he saw in her, and when it comes to light that she really IS dangerous, how would that have been her fault if that's what attracted him to her in the first place?  Sherlock knew it and Mary knew it.  John accepted it eventually and decided to move on with his life.  I don't see what's so difficult to understand about that.

I get what you're saying-- but here's a question. If John could overlook Mary's past, because he's acting the way normal people do, in an extreme situation-- why is he so upset, so betrayed, so enraged by the fact that Mary has lied to him from the get go? He doesn't even know her name. 

So, again-- I'm thinking, denial-- and a subconscious wish for very dangerous people and situations in his life coupled with the refusal to take responsibility for bringing those people and situations into his life. 
 

Also, I am confused as to where did John see the danger in Mary? I'm not saying he didn't, but he is no Sherlock in terms of deductions nor he is some sort of mind reader.
She seemed very normal and 'safe' thoroughout.

I totally get John's confusion when they accuse him of having chosen her...

sj4iy wrote:

And she didn't seem the slightest bit normal to me.  What kind of woman would immediately like Sherlock, know why he needed a confidante while in hiding, recognizes a skip code on sight, has absolutely no past beyond 5 years, and can remember the exact hotel room number of a random guest?  Something was very, very off about her from the very beginning.  Sherlock knew it, the audience knew it (there are many threads in this very message board with viewers pointing out everything that seemed off about her), so John must have known it, as well.  He may not be as smart as Sherlock, but he's not stupid, either.  There would be no reason to suspect that she was an assassin, but there was every reason to suspect that she wasn't exactly 'normal'.  John was attracted to that and loved her for it. 

I also thought there was something off about her.

but, the details in relation to Sherlock - that she liked him - only happened when Sherlock came back and therefore 6 months into their relationship.

The rest- of course I could perfectly understand John being attracted to someone who seems smart and streetwise. Smart and streewise is very different than being 'dangerous' and 'an assassin', once again - also being 'not normal' is very different from that.

So yes I can accept he saw and was attracted by her clever traits, but to me she didn't appear to him as dangerous/weird/crazy in any way (like Sherlock did instead) and thefore he couldn't possibly be attracted to her for that.

in other words, we are once again being asked to hang in there and bear with them while they make us jump cliffs like it's nothing

Wholocked wrote:

I think the idea is that it was a subconscious thing. He didn't necessarily recognise it for what it was, but on some level he was aware that there was something more about her and that's what attracted him to her. I think that's what is being suggested here.

This is exactly it.  It's not something that people really verbalize, "I'm attracted to this and this and this"...you just know it when you see it.  I've been married nearly 10 years, and even now, I can't really tell you exactly what it is that attracted me to me my husband...I just was.  John's attracted to danger.  Sherlock knew it from the moment he met John, but John's always thought of himself as the 'normal' one.

Personally, I loved that Sherlock was completely and utterly honest with him in the scene in the flat.  There was no bulls***ing or denial, he straight up said "I solve crimes as an alternative to drug use and you are abnormally attracted to dangerous people".  He knew that he didn't have long and didn't mince words.  And John's quiet comeback of "But she wasn't supposed to be like that" was simply heartbreaking on so many levels.  Mary just stood there in silent terror that her entire life was crashing down around her.  I just felt so much for all three of them in that situation.  No cliffs here, I'm completely in love with all three of them...moreso for all their faults.  Mary didn't ruin Sherlock and John's relationship...she made it stronger.

Last edited by sj4iy (January 14, 2014 1:07 am)

Sorry for my English!!

The whole episode seems to be John's attempt not to become completely "sherlocked" again - and the attempt of Sherlock to apologize and to "involve" John to his life again. 

JOHN is the one who died during these 2 years without Sherlock: not Sherlock, but John. His words on the tomb were his love confession to Sherlock. John died. But he could return to life. Mary saved him. And... Sherlock is not his pressure point anymore.
Completely backwards with Sherlock. Only now he understands, what John means for him. And he is trying to get the excuse: he tries to speak to John pretending their death in some minutes, tries to involve him is his life again, sacrifizing his life and freedom for him... 
But John is not prepared for this yet. He is too shocked to understand, that his "reburth" to "normal life" is only an illusion. He is afraid to feel pain again (and we remember, HOW he feels the pain: he is afraid to "die" again).
Even more: he understands that Sherlock has changed. He heard, that he is Sherlock's ONLY pressure point. He understands, that Sherlock sacrifised his life for him. But he is not prepared to give this back to Sherlock. Not again. (we must not also forget about the child and Mary - she is not only his wife but the person who saved him!)
And Sherlock understands this. He can say a lot to John near the plane, but he doesn't do this. Because... "what the hell will John answer to this?!" And the handshake was his gift for John. Is was a simple friend's handshake, saying: "I don't need anything from you, John, because I understand, that you cannot give me anything now. And I accept the distance that you need between us now". That's why John looks at his hand for so a long time, like on the gift he cannot accept..
That's it...
So, John thinks, his game is over, but we know, that is only the beginning of their story. John IS sherlocked - he needs Sherlock more than he wants and more than he can accept. Now he has to accept himself. Try to excuse Sherlock and overcome his own fear. Waiting for the 4th season...

Last edited by atlantiana (January 15, 2014 6:47 pm)

yes, I agree, as heartbreaking as that was to read. Very well said.

I agree with ivyblossom about this topic, see link below (she's also a brilliant fanfic writer, as some of you already know )

http://ivyblossom.tumblr.com/post/73237442221/hi-i-just-read-your-metas-and-comments-and-everything

I can't understand why some people say John wasn't in the hospital after Sherlock was shot.

Wholocked wrote:

Just finished watching it so these are my initial thoughts.

I think that was entirely in character. He watched Sherlock jump to his death and mourned him for two years. Watching him get onto a plane into exile, alive, would be nothing. He deals with emotions by repressing them and he certainly wasn't about to burden Sherlock with whatever he might have been feeling at that moment.

They're not as close as they were either. John has Mary and his focus has been there. He thought Sherlock was dead and started a new life with her. Sherlock slotted back into his life in some way, but not in the same way. I think this whole season has been about the two of them working out what they are to each other in this new world, and I don't think either of them quite figured it out.

Be interesting to see what they do with the characters and the relationships in season 4.

Ozma was talking about the end scene when Sherlock is about to be exiled...but I had a similar reaction to how John behaved after Sherlock was shot. I think someone really dropped the ball on John's reactions (probably more the writers' fault than Martin's).

I don't think he was NEARLY scared or anguished enough. I wanted to see more caregiving toward Sherlock. And I think he let Mary off the hook WAY too easily. 

I can buy his accepting her past, especially if she was working for the CIA or some other government aligned with the UK. There would be a certain parallel with his own military career, and you could even think of it as "He married a female Sherlock."

But Dr. John Watson staying married to and in love with someone who SHOOTS SHERLOCK HOLMES? I always thought he would have zero tolerance for any harm to Sherlock.

Is this the same guy who punched a superintendent of Scotland Yard in the face for calling Sherlock "weird?" A punch in the face isn't fatal, but it's pretty serious in proportion to a verbal insult...made me think John could go a bit psychopath himself.

And then John's, "Is everyone I've ever met a psychopath?" It came off like he was mad at Sherlock for not cluing him in.

I would agree that John changed his relationship with Sherlock as a result of the Hiatus: he forgave him for the deception, but he also followed through with marrying Mary, so he both "went back to" Sherlock AND "moved on"...moved on from the original relationship he had where his whole life revolved around Sherlock.

(In canon, it went the other way: Watson got married, Holmes disappeared a few years later, Mary dies or is otherwise taken out the picture during the Hiatus, and Watson devotes his life to Holmes when Holmes returns.)

As for the end (plane) scene: John's "The game is over," did it for me. 

Last edited by SherlocklivesinOH (February 8, 2014 4:15 am)