Do we know that she did it for money? Sherlock thinks she was an intelligence agent. She might have killed people for political reasons (not that I want to defend doing this). People like Magnussen as she said herself. 

Ozma wrote:

sj4iy wrote:

Ozma wrote:

Because she killed people for money?

So do soldiers (which John just happens to be).  Sherlock said she was an Intelligence Agent, which doesn't exactly make her evil.

yes, I knew this was going to come up, but technically John is an army doctor....

An army doctor who killed people in war for money.  How is that different from an Intelligence Agent?

Last edited by sj4iy (January 13, 2014 9:01 pm)

No, I think it was more because it showed her not being the cute litte wife John appeared to want!

sj4iy wrote:

Ozma wrote:

sj4iy wrote:

So do soldiers (which John just happens to be).  Sherlock said she was an Intelligence Agent, which doesn't exactly make her evil.

yes, I knew this was going to come up, but technically John is an army doctor....

An army doctor who killed people in war for money.  How is that different from an Intelligence Agent?

Firstly, if you listen to CAM when he shows Sherlock his mind palace - Mary started out as an inteligence agent but then 'She started to branch out into contract work, bad girl, she killed so many people' - I take this to mean killing for money.

Secondly, a soldier does not kill for money.  He protects his country and gets paid a living wage for that.  You might as well call a policeman a killer because he is also trained to use a gun.  Soldiers are taught more than how to kill people, just like policemen.  Killing is not the sum of what a soldier is, it is however the sum of a contract killer.  Some say a uniform doesn't make a difference, in my mind, and I'm thinking John's mind, it does.  It is John's POV that matters here, right??

Mxx

Last edited by Mirthxx (January 13, 2014 9:12 pm)

Mirthxx wrote:

sj4iy wrote:

Ozma wrote:

yes, I knew this was going to come up, but technically John is an army doctor....

An army doctor who killed people in war for money.  How is that different from an Intelligence Agent?

Firstly, if you listen to CAM when he shows Sherlock his mind palace - Mary started out as an inteligence agent but then 'She started to branch out into contract work, bad girl, she killed so many people' - I take this to mean killing for money.

Secondly, a soldier does not kill for money.  He protects his country and gets paid a living wage for that.  You might as well call a policeman a killer because he is also trained to use a gun.  Soldiers are taught more than how to kill people, just like policemen.  Killing is not the sum of what a soldier is, it is however the sum of a contract killer.  Some say a uniform doesn't make a difference, in my mind, and I'm thinking John's mind, it does.  It is John's POV that matters here, right??

Mxx

Not every soldier goes into the army for love of country.  I doubt that it was John's primary motivation, either, given that we know that he's 'addicted to a certain type of lifestyle'.  Just like his adventures with Sherlock, I would say that it's safe to assume he did it for the excitement.  And who's to say that Mary didn't become an agent for noble reasons?  That she wasn't indiscriminate when it came to her victims?  If she killed the right people, she could have very well been hailed as a hero by many.  We don't know, yet we are judging her based on a couple of lines of dialogue.  We say that it's 'heroic' to kill in one situation, but not in another.  However, to you think that matters to the person pulling the trigger?  They know they have killed, whether justly or unjustly, and unless you really are a psychopath, it will haunt you.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not defending her actions as right, moral or even just.  I'm simply defending her right to be forgiven and loved by John.  John has done terrible things, has seen terrible things and knows that he is far from perfect.  Why wouldn't he look at his wife, knowing that she is all of those same things as he is deep down, and still love her when she's everything he truly wants, needs and even craves in a partner?  When she's tried very hard to become a different person and leave everything behind?  She never tried to break John and Sherlock apart, nor did she want to shoot Sherlock.  It was an unfortunate situation for all, and even Sherlock deserved some share of the blame for his mistakes.

It wasn't out of character for John to still love her...love isn't logical.  It doesn't adhere to rules, otherwise people would never stay in bad relationships.  John and Mary didn't have a bad relationship, and John clearly thought it was worth trying again.

"Because you chose her," is what Sherlock says, and John knows he's right.  John saw all of those things he loved and chose her.  To reject her because she turned out to be what he liked would have been hypocrisy.

Last edited by sj4iy (January 13, 2014 10:21 pm)

Also, another interesting thing in the matter of John choosing the people in his life - in the conversation they have in Baker Street, when Sherlock says that John likes a certain lifestyle and certain 'thrills' in his life -  John says, 'She wasn't supposed to be like that. Why is *she* like that?' - as in, you were like that, but she wasn't supposed to be like that, after you. Putting both Sherlock and Mary nicely alongside as John's life partners.

Last edited by Ozma (January 13, 2014 10:51 pm)

well, surely that's wha this episode  was pushing us to believe. A little abrupt, if you ask me - as mentioned earlier we all thought he a stronger moral compass than that.

sj4iy wrote:

RavenMorganLeigh wrote:

Ozma wrote:

But then he should have stopped loving her already, since it was clear by then that she wasn't that?

Yet John forgives her, but *still* doesn't look at the file - because he doesn't want to know *more*.

Yep, exactly! John, living in denial. And then he wonders why the people in his life are the way they are. Because HE chose them. And he really, really is invested in not seeing that. 

So, of course this makes me wonder-- if John is not as much of a "psycopath" as Mary and Sherlock-- it would explain a lot. 

How many people demand to know every single person your potential mate had slept with?  How many traffic tickets they had?  Every job they ever had?

Most people don't want to know about their mate's pasts.  They simply know them as this person now and get on with their lives.  Most of the time, it has no bearing on the future.  If John chooses to see it that way, I think he has that right.
 

aw, come on!! We know very well that file didn't contain the names of Mary's previous boyfriends!!!
 

Ozma wrote:

sj4iy wrote:

RavenMorganLeigh wrote:

Yep, exactly! John, living in denial. And then he wonders why the people in his life are the way they are. Because HE chose them. And he really, really is invested in not seeing that. 

So, of course this makes me wonder-- if John is not as much of a "psycopath" as Mary and Sherlock-- it would explain a lot. 

How many people demand to know every single person your potential mate had slept with?  How many traffic tickets they had?  Every job they ever had?

Most people don't want to know about their mate's pasts.  They simply know them as this person now and get on with their lives.  Most of the time, it has no bearing on the future.  If John chooses to see it that way, I think he has that right.
 

aw, come on!! We know very well that file didn't contain the names of Mary's previous boyfriends!!!
 

Of course not.  I was using it as an analogy.  You're saying that he wants to live in ignorance of her past...well, so do most people when it comes to their mates.  It's not uncommon.
 

Ozma wrote:

RavenMorganLeigh wrote:

Ozma wrote:

aw, come on!! We know very well that file didn't contain the names of Mary's previous boyfriends!!!
 

Yep. There's a difference between a history of traffic tickets, and err, well-- murder. 

#

I'm sorry, but I can't believe this just happened.

It was an analogy.  Please don't make it into something it clearly wasn't.

Last edited by sj4iy (January 13, 2014 11:40 pm)