SherlocklivesinOH wrote:

lil wrote:

Expecting Sherlock/John to already have the huge and wonderful relationship they have in canon and we know they are going to have before the events that formed it happen , actually happen is a mistake.
At the end of TRF John is sad and mourning yes ,in the graveyard scene, but I don't see a totally devastated emotionally crippled man..he mourns and misses Sherlock loads but he does eventually get on with his life.
Sherlocks return and the events of series three eventually bring them closer together. TRF is dealt with and over by the end of TEH. In TSOT as a duo they are better than they were before.
John is confused and OOC in HLV because he is realising that the person he clicks with and the person he loves best and what makes him happy..is not some wife and a kid and a quiet life in the burbs...its adventures with Sherlock.
John is all over the place..torn between Sherlock first ( heart) and Mary first (head).

Sherlock already knows the only person he clicks with and loves is John..thats why he trys to do whats best for John and not himself.
Maybe Sherlock learnt from actually dieing this time..that he actually doesn't want to die ..he has a reason to live ..and it's not just cases..its cases with John.

Everyone and everything is stalemated atm tho..by the baby issue.
Thats why Sherlock manipulates the marriage reunion.
Thats why John can't face Marys truths.
Likely thats why Mycroft hasn't tipped lestade to the shooters ID.

A lot of the OOC John is annoying and hard to understand and I think we all really feel for Sherlock this series which exasperates it.

However it is going through all theese times together..good and bad ..that will lead us to the /endgame and the fantastic "us against the world" inseperable symbiotic combo seen in canon.
We have seen the relationship grow and grow and yes heres a rocky patch or two but...My guess is we are almost there.

I'm not sure it's so much John being out of character as the fact that throughout Season 3 he shifts back and forth in ways that don't seem logical (and no, I know feelings aren't logical, but):

 - despite praying for a miracle of Sherlock being alive he's initially more angry than anything else when Sherlock reveals himself and at least makes a show of writing Sherlock off in TEH. The anger is understandable, but I would like to have seen SOME happiness that Sherlock is alive.

- he forgives Sherlock because he believes they are both going to die for real. When this turns out to be a trick of Sherlock's however, the forgiveness appears to stick...we never see him bawl Sherlock out for the trick (on the train), and in fact, we get the impression that he forgive Sherlock in part BECAUSE of that scene, even though it was a trick.

- TSoT is all about them reaffirming their friendship and saying how much they mean to each other. You feel like the Hiatus is mostly behind them, as far as John is concerned. Sherlock is afraid of losing John because John is getting married but he handles it pretty maturely, and seems to view saving Major Sholto as part of atoning for hurting John. John seems to want to reassure Sherlock that his fears of losing him are unfounded.

- in HLV, we see John at his angriest at Sherlock at a time when Sherlock is doing his utmost for John and John's family. It seems like John blames Sherlock for the fact that John ended up married to someone who is...what Mary is. And the fact that Sherlock almost died doesn't seem to be John's primary concern.

Unless you believe that John's anger over the disappearance / Hiatus was buried and just re-surfaced at a seemingly-unlikely time?

I can see the timing issue from John's point of view: he is addicted to the lifestyle with Sherlock but thought Mary would represent a safer lifestyle, which he could have to. Finding out that she was essentially the same as Sherlock was too much. But why is that part Sherlock's fault? Would John have wanted Sherlock to warn him? Don't you think, if Sherlock had tried, John would have written it off as Sherlock feeling threatened?

I think John ( in his current incarnation) doesn't trust Sherlock as far as he can throw him, and Sherlock knows it. John is also very good at hiding his head in the sand (you can't tell me that six months went by, with some of it having John and Mary live together, and *he never noticed anything off about Mary???) , so Sherlock had to find a way for Mary to "out" herself. And John may blame Sherlock anyway, because he destroyed John's fantasy. And at this point, it almost seems like a reflex, Blame Sherlock, and/or hit him/threaten violence. 

 

IMO they do not resemble each other. Full stop. Sherlock wants John to believe this for certain reasons but they are very different. One may criticise Sherlock's methods but he has always been on the side of the angels. And even when he employed morally dubious methods like drugging John in HoB he ultimately helped Henry to overcome his trauma by finding his father's murderer. 

SusiGo wrote:

IMO they do not resemble each other. Full stop. Sherlock wants John to believe this for certain reasons but they are very different. One may criticise Sherlock's methods but he has always been on the side of the angels. And even when he employed morally dubious methods like drugging John in HoB he ultimately helped Henry to overcome his trauma by finding his father's murderer. 

Yup. I totally agree with you. 

Harobed wrote:

Mattlocked wrote:

I came to my mind, for a second: What if John runs after the plane right now?
And I would have hated it.
Though I would like to have seen an embrace at least, I think they did the scene quite well. Have to watch it again to be sure...

Oh, Mattlocked, you spoke my heart, exactly!
I am one of those who misses seeing a more emotional reaction from John, but must swallow hard & face the fact, that, if he did, it may play as a bit mushy, out of character & spoil the continunity of the story.
 

 
I wonder if the not wanting To appear mushy may be a motive behind this series' writing.

Is it possible they felt since so many became obsessed shipping the two that they should put so distance  in between the two?

besleybean wrote:

I certainly don't think it's the latter.
The writers knew that by sticking to Canon, John would be shown to be initially a 'ladies man'(and yes I hate that term) and then married(to a woman!).
There was a fine balance this season, between mush and chill...
I also think we have to spare a thought for goldfish John:
He went through the trauma of seeing Sherlock 'die', then he has to deal with Sherlock coming back, then his wife shoots Sherlock, then Sherlock was looking at a life sentence and then being banished(at least)...all of this in the knowledge that Sherlock did these things largely for John...
I think John is just an emotiional mess!

 
Well we know he finds it hard to show his feelings so that could be the reason why he seemed so OK with possibly never seeing Sherlock again, I suppose.
But that scene just before the plane turned back with him standing hand in hand with Mary while Sherlock was being exiled for good - just felt depressing

John apparently didn't know that Sherlock's mission was to die after six months in exile.
What did they tell John anyway? That Mycroft covered everything up?
What exactly did they tell the public? I imagine newspaper headlines: "Newspaper owner killed at Appledore. Kill shot from close distance. No suspects. "
CAM died, was shot at by somebody who magically disappeared?
There has to be an inquiry, a police investigation, a court case. What about the body?
CAM has probably a family and he is quite famous. He can't just vanish, can he.
Here we are with the same questions again. Look at our questions about Moriarty and his body.

 

Be wrote:

John apparently didn't know that Sherlock's mission was to die after six months in exile.
What did they tell John anyway? That Mycroft covered everything up?
What exactly did they tell the public? I imagine newspaper headlines: "Newspaper owner killed at Appledore. Kill shot from close distance. No suspects. "
CAM died, was shot at by somebody who magically disappeared?
There has to be an inquiry, a police investigation, a court case. What about the body?
CAM has probably a family and he is quite famous. He can't just vanish, can he.
Here we are with the same questions again. Look at our questions about Moriarty and his body.

 

 
There is just so much suspension of disbelief here isn't there?
Do we really think writers of this calibre just deal with all these things by just having them dealt with off camera?

Mycroft tells Sherlock in TEH that he's been keeping an eye on John while he's been away and he even knows where John's having dinner that evening, but he makes no mention of Mary - why?
Does it really make sense that there were people apparantly ready to harm John if they found out Sherlock was alive, people watching him, yet someone new comes into his life and Mycroft does no background checks?

Someone shot and nearly killed Sherlock, yet no one seemed that bothered to find out who?
Isn't it convenient that Mycroft has surveillance on his Brother, but seems to have no clue that Mary shot him?

John apparantly stays away from Mary for the whole time Sherlock is in Hospital, yet as soon as he's released, he takes her back and burns the unread file - does this not seem strange to anyone else?

Sherlock kills a very well known newspaper magnate in front of witnesses but this seems to have been very neatly tidied up.
Mycroft says CAM never causes too much harm, yet Magnussen says he was waiting for a chance to get at Mycroft through Sherlock. How could Mycroft not know this?
Sherlock thinks he's going off for good, doesn't he? Yet not a word of goodbye passes between him and his Brother.
Had something been pre arranged between them?
So many questions and so much time to go round in circles trying to answer them whilst waiting for a new series!

Tinks wrote:

Be wrote:

John apparently didn't know that Sherlock's mission was to die after six months in exile.
What did they tell John anyway? That Mycroft covered everything up?
What exactly did they tell the public? I imagine newspaper headlines: "Newspaper owner killed at Appledore. Kill shot from close distance. No suspects. "
CAM died, was shot at by somebody who magically disappeared?
There has to be an inquiry, a police investigation, a court case. What about the body?
CAM has probably a family and he is quite famous. He can't just vanish, can he.
Here we are with the same questions again. Look at our questions about Moriarty and his body.

 

 
There is just so much suspension of disbelief here isn't there?
Do we really think writers of this calibre just deal with all these things by just having them dealt with off camera?

Mycroft tells Sherlock in TEH that he's been keeping an eye on John while he's been away and he even knows where John's having dinner that evening, but he makes no mention of Mary - why?
Does it really make sense that there were people apparantly ready to harm John if they found out Sherlock was alive, people watching him, yet someone new comes into his life and Mycroft does no background checks?

Someone shot and nearly killed Sherlock, yet no one seemed that bothered to find out who?
Isn't it convenient that Mycroft has surveillance on his Brother, but seems to have no clue that Mary shot him?

John apparantly stays away from Mary for the whole time Sherlock is in Hospital, yet as soon as he's released, he takes her back and burns the unread file - does this not seem strange to anyone else?

Sherlock kills a very well known newspaper magnate in front of witnesses but this seems to have been very neatly tidied up.
Mycroft says CAM never causes too much harm, yet Magnussen says he was waiting for a chance to get at Mycroft through Sherlock. How could Mycroft not know this?
Sherlock thinks he's going off for good, doesn't he? Yet not a word of goodbye passes between him and his Brother.
Had something been pre arranged between them?
So many questions and so much time to go round in circles trying to answer them whilst waiting for a new series!

Everything is a bit strange, isn't it. The question is what is the meaning of it? We probably need the right perspective.
Why suspend our disbelieve? Let's not believe."I believe in Sherlock Holmes" ?? Well, that won't bring him back.  Maybe we get somewhere when we are a bit more creative.
When we saw setlock I was already very suspicious and said that I don't believe anything, especially not the fake-fall-filming. Nobody wanted to listen.  And now we are here again and you are talking about suspension of disbelieve.

Either the writers are suddenly crazy or there is a reason to do what they do.
Either we are totally fooled like Anderson and can't see the clues or there are non and we are victims of our critical mind and the writers just stir the canon until nobody can see it anymore. 

Zatoichi wrote:

So many questions and so much time to go round in circles trying to answer them whilst waiting for a new series!

 

 
you think maybe we are getting a bit carried away? 

Be wrote:

Tinks wrote:

Zatoichi wrote:

 

 
you think maybe we are getting a bit carried away?

That practically sums it up. As if the writers were aware what they do to the fandom with a fake explanation and inconclusive clues.

That? Was FUNNY. :-)