BBC Sherlock Fan Forum - Serving Sherlockians since February 2012.


You are not logged in. Would you like to login or register?



February 10, 2014 9:17 pm  #81


Re: Redbeard

My money's on the latter.


---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
http://professorfangirl.tumblr.com/post/105838327464/heres-an-outtake-of-mark-gatiss-on-the
 

February 10, 2014 9:27 pm  #82


Re: Redbeard

besleybean wrote:

My money's on the latter.

 
A gut punch?
Nooooo!!! I really can't take any more of those


"And in the end,
The Love you take
Is equal to the Love you make"
                                             The Beatles
 

February 10, 2014 10:10 pm  #83


Re: Redbeard

Tinks wrote:

besleybean wrote:

My money's on the latter.

 
A gut punch?
Nooooo!!! I really can't take any more of those

It is at moments like this when you take a deep breath and recite the following mantra:

Sherlock Holmes and Dr John Watson would never abandon a pregnant woman to her enemies, irrespective of whether or not her enemies have good reason to be her enemies.

Repeat as needed
 

 

February 10, 2014 10:37 pm  #84


Re: Redbeard

A gut punch of Johns own choice this time tho.
John had all the details and dangers to himself and Sherlock.... in his hand .
He chose to throw it on the fire , he didn't/doesn't want to know.
Sherlock let John choose , but my money is on Sherlock knowing what was on the memory card.
I don't see Sherlock letting it just be burnt/forgotten. .not knowing annoys him.

Apparently not knowing..is Johns MO this time.
John is prob right in a way for now...pregnant Mary stalemate (he wont love/like her anymore) thing.

 

February 10, 2014 11:01 pm  #85


Re: Redbeard

lil wrote:

A gut punch of Johns own choice this time tho.
John had all the details and dangers to himself and Sherlock.... in his hand .
He chose to throw it on the fire , he didn't/doesn't want to know.
Sherlock let John choose , but my money is on Sherlock knowing what was on the memory card.
I don't see Sherlock letting it just be burnt/forgotten. .not knowing annoys him.

Apparently not knowing..is Johns MO this time.
John is prob right in a way for now...pregnant Mary stalemate (he wont love/like her anymore) thing.

Yes, yet another touch of irony; he violently attacks Sherlock for not telling him, and then chooses to be ignorant of what Mary has done. I agree entirely that Sherlock knows what is on the memory stick, if anything, I cannot imagine any circumstances in which he would choose not to know, particularly since, as you note, it represents danger to himself and to John.

Stalemate indeed in John's (fake) marriage; the pregnancy is the only way Moftiss could have preserved that status quo for the next season...


 

 

February 12, 2014 7:57 pm  #86


Re: Redbeard

I don't know if this has been pointed out before, but today because of "Swan or Sydney Opera House" and dancing and ballet I thought of Swan Lake. From the German Wikipedia article I got that the story of the ballet (music composed by Tchaikovsky btw) is about a prince named Siegfried who has to choose a bride. He wants to marry the Swan Queen Odette, who has been turned into a swan by the evil sorcerer Rotbart (which means "Redbeard"). Only true love can break the spell. At a festive ball the prince expects to see Odette again, but instead the sorcerer appears with a dark woman (Odile) who looks just like Odette. The prince falls for the trick and swears he loves Odile, and dances with her. Then he realises what he's done and runs back to Odette. In some adaptations they both die, in others one of them dies, or they both live happily ever after.
So, do you think this could be an intentional reference? Mary would be Odile/Odette (black and white swan, evil and good), Magnussen would be the "evil sorcerer" who turned her into his creature. If the plot was roughly based on a ballet, that would also explain why S3 is so overly dramatic. In ballet and opera people are never just unhappy or so, they always "die", especially when they lose their true love. And it's Sherlock's perspective. That would be like him, to see life as a play/ballet/opera. (He definitely does a "dying swan" a couple of times.)
I would conclude that Sherlock as a child was a nerdy little boy who liked ballet dancing (I bet his peers hated him ). So much that he named his dog after the evil sorcerer from Swan Lake. When Mycroft asks him if he remembers Redbeard, perhaps that's a hint that Mycroft knows about Magnussen and Mary and that Mary is not what she seems to be. But also not really evil (and Magnussen is not a murderer, and also sometimes useful to Mycroft), otherwise Mycroft would have intervened. He just warns Sherlock not to get involved.
Opinions?


---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
He’s got a dog. We go to the pub on weekends. I’ve met his mum and dad …
http://s7.directupload.net/images/140302/9ovmk4uv.jpg
… and his friends and all his family and I’ve no idea why I’m telling you this.
 

February 12, 2014 8:03 pm  #87


Re: Redbeard

I still think it purely refers to not getting too emotionally involved in somebody/thing that will end...or be taken away from you!

Last edited by besleybean (February 12, 2014 8:04 pm)


---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
http://professorfangirl.tumblr.com/post/105838327464/heres-an-outtake-of-mark-gatiss-on-the
 

February 12, 2014 8:20 pm  #88


Re: Redbeard

Yes, I think that Mycroft - sometimes misguidedly and often in a slightly cruel way - tries to remind Sherlock not to get emotionally attached because he knows Sherlock can't deal very well with emotional upset.
We know Sherlock wanted to be a Pirate as a boy so I think the dog - probably his only friend - was given a Pirate's name.
It's not unthinkable though that the parallels to Swan Lake were thrown in as a clue


"And in the end,
The Love you take
Is equal to the Love you make"
                                             The Beatles
 

February 12, 2014 8:24 pm  #89


Re: Redbeard

Because Moriarty likes to make him dance.


---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
http://professorfangirl.tumblr.com/post/105838327464/heres-an-outtake-of-mark-gatiss-on-the
 

February 12, 2014 8:29 pm  #90


Re: Redbeard

Also, at the wedding Mary is wearing a white dress (of course), while in the scenes where Sherlock sees her as a "liar", and when she shoots him, she's dressed in black.


---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
He’s got a dog. We go to the pub on weekends. I’ve met his mum and dad …
http://s7.directupload.net/images/140302/9ovmk4uv.jpg
… and his friends and all his family and I’ve no idea why I’m telling you this.
 

February 12, 2014 8:34 pm  #91


Re: Redbeard

What's a bit sad is that Mycroft has been right so far he warned Sherlock about Addler , Mary, and Magnusson.
I also think to some extent Sherlock was emotionally compromised with Moriarty.
Every time so far emotional environment has seemed to lead to bad endings, and being let down ,
except with John.
Maybe it's set up a bit to be that way.
Idk.

 

February 28, 2014 1:57 am  #92


Re: Redbeard

lil wrote:

What's a bit sad is that Mycroft has been right so far he warned Sherlock about Addler , Mary, and Magnusson.
I also think to some extent Sherlock was emotionally compromised with Moriarty.
Every time so far emotional environment has seemed to lead to bad endings, and being let down ,
except with John.
Maybe it's set up a bit to be that way.
Idk.

. . . . and further except with Molly. I've often wondered why Sherlock has a hard time seeing how true Molly is . . . . is it because Molly's in love with him?


"Come live with me and be my love, and we will all the pleasures prove that valleys, groves, hills, and fields, woods or steepy mountain yields." Molly Hooper.
If all the world and love were young, And truth in every shepherd's tongue, these pretty pleasures might me move to live with thee and be thy love." Sherlock's Reply.
 

February 28, 2014 7:08 am  #93


Re: Redbeard

Sherlock is fully aware of Molly's reliability and is eternally indebted to her,.


---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
http://professorfangirl.tumblr.com/post/105838327464/heres-an-outtake-of-mark-gatiss-on-the
 

February 28, 2014 12:29 pm  #94


Re: Redbeard

besleybean wrote:

Sherlock is fully aware of Molly's reliability and is eternally indebted to her,.

And yet he seems to treat her more with kid gloves than John, and John is also loyal, steadfast, and Sherlock is eternally indebted to him as well.


"Come live with me and be my love, and we will all the pleasures prove that valleys, groves, hills, and fields, woods or steepy mountain yields." Molly Hooper.
If all the world and love were young, And truth in every shepherd's tongue, these pretty pleasures might me move to live with thee and be thy love." Sherlock's Reply.
 

February 28, 2014 1:41 pm  #95


Re: Redbeard

Dr. Seem wrote:

besleybean wrote:

Sherlock is fully aware of Molly's reliability and is eternally indebted to her,.

And yet he seems to treat her more with kid gloves than John, and John is also loyal, steadfast, and Sherlock is eternally indebted to him as well.

Well, I think that you need to bear in mind the fact that Sherlock is something of a closet romantic; he would deny it indignantly but his view of women is, to a degree, romanticised. His assumptions about motherhood are romanticised; his mother gave up her brilliant career as a mathematician to have children so he imagines that's the way it works. He does try to defend and protect the innocent, hence my 'It's the baby, stoopid' analysis of the choices he makes, and he is immensely protective of Mrs Hudson, even though he can be really rude to her at times. He is the only person Lady Smallwood could turn to for help, because he is the only person willing to go up against CAM on her behalf.

Given that this is what Sherlock is like I am not surprised that he treats Molly with more kid gloves than he does with John; John is, after all, a guy. And one of the greatest lessons we see Sherlock learning about emotions is when he hurts Molly; we see him realising it, and we see him regretting it, and we see him trying to repair the damage as best he could. I am not surprised that he tried to do better in future with her, and I am not surprised that he would stand there in Barts and let her strike him repeatedly; he owes her a debt of honour, and he knows it. And those blows are repeated in his Mind Palace scene; Molly once again is the person who wants to save his life, as she did in the Fall.

John is the guy who would have got him killed, entirely unintentionally but killed nevertheless, and he's just been shot in the chest by John's wife. It is an indication of just what John means to him that he manages to claw his way back from Moriarty's dungeon, but Molly is the person who gives him the time. And Mycroft of course, but Sherlock sees no reason to use kid gloves on his brother...
 

 

February 28, 2014 9:49 pm  #96


Re: Redbeard

Willow wrote:

Dr. Seem wrote:

besleybean wrote:

Sherlock is fully aware of Molly's reliability and is eternally indebted to her,.

And yet he seems to treat her more with kid gloves than John, and John is also loyal, steadfast, and Sherlock is eternally indebted to him as well.

Well, I think that you need to bear in mind the fact that Sherlock is something of a closet romantic; he would deny it indignantly but his view of women is, to a degree, romanticised. His assumptions about motherhood are romanticised; his mother gave up her brilliant career as a mathematician to have children so he imagines that's the way it works. He does try to defend and protect the innocent, hence my 'It's the baby, stoopid' analysis of the choices he makes, and he is immensely protective of Mrs Hudson, even though he can be really rude to her at times. He is the only person Lady Smallwood could turn to for help, because he is the only person willing to go up against CAM on her behalf.

Given that this is what Sherlock is like I am not surprised that he treats Molly with more kid gloves than he does with John; John is, after all, a guy. And one of the greatest lessons we see Sherlock learning about emotions is when he hurts Molly; we see him realising it, and we see him regretting it, and we see him trying to repair the damage as best he could. I am not surprised that he tried to do better in future with her, and I am not surprised that he would stand there in Barts and let her strike him repeatedly; he owes her a debt of honour, and he knows it. And those blows are repeated in his Mind Palace scene; Molly once again is the person who wants to save his life, as she did in the Fall.

John is the guy who would have got him killed, entirely unintentionally but killed nevertheless, and he's just been shot in the chest by John's wife. It is an indication of just what John means to him that he manages to claw his way back from Moriarty's dungeon, but Molly is the person who gives him the time. And Mycroft of course, but Sherlock sees no reason to use kid gloves on his brother...
 

Really, really interesting insights, here. 

 

May 23, 2015 10:52 am  #97


Re: Redbeard

Going back to the dog: I really wondered for quite some time what Sherlock's childhood must have been like for him to become so attached to Redbeard - and so traumatized by the dog's death - that "Redbeard" comes up as one of CAM's "pressure points". Pets die, it's what they do, and im most cases much sooner than their owners. Having - and losing - pets is one of the ways children can learn to cope with death (hopefully before they lose their (grand)parents.). Of course, that requires the parents to not lie about the animals death... (didn't know about that bit before readint this thread).

As Sherlock's parents seem perfectly loving and "ordinary", I can't understand why they couldn't have explained to Sherlock that Redbeard is sick and suffering and would be better off going to Heaven. Of course, the Irish Setter in the mind palace scene does not at all look sick and suffering (but then, Sherlock wouldn't want to remember him that way).

Then a fan fiction writer (sorry, I forgot who) suggested that Redbeard could have tried to defend Sherlock by biting some bully and been put down for that reason. Now that would explain quite a lot of things: Firstly, how CAM knew about the incident (I can see the healidne: "Irish Setter Mauls Kid on Playground"). Secondly it's much easier to accept a sick animal being put down than a perfectly healthy one that was just a bit overenthousiastic doing its job. Thirdly, for this reason the parents lying about having the dog killed also seems more probable to me.

What do you think?

 

May 23, 2015 10:58 am  #98


Re: Redbeard

I agree with how you're thinking as well, Kittyhawk. Losing a pet can be heartbreaking. I've lost pets myself, dogs and cats, both as a child and as an adult. And even though it was of course heartbreaking at the time, and I still can feel sad about and even shed a tear if I think too much on my dog that I had to put down five years ago, I don't freeze up just by the mention of the pet's name like Sherlock does.

That is not a normal reaction for the "normal" loss of a pet. Not when we're talking about a dog who died over twenty years ago.

The fanfic idea is of course just speculation, but it would make sense that there is more to it than "just" the death of a beloved pet for Sherlock to still react the way he does. I do know a grown man who still can't deal with a dog he lost about fifteen years ago. For him, it's about not being able to deal with his grief.

My personal thesis lies more in that ally - Sherlock having learned a long time ago to not deal with his emotions. Whenever he's frustrated, angry, bored or hurt, he still lashes out with tantrums like a child. He pouts, yells, demands attention, demands people around him to attend to his emotional needs whenever he feels frustrated or bored, even to the point of the tube scene in TEH - putting John in a believed life/death-situation just because he needed his forgiveness. 

That makes me wonder if he simply hasn't dealt with the death of Redbeard, only tucked it away somewhere deep in his Mind Palace. If you do, then the grief will still be raw everytime you think about it.


__________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
"We'll live on starlight and crime scenes" - wordstrings
http://i.imgur.com/NzWTIDd.png

Team Hudders!
 
 

May 23, 2015 1:19 pm  #99


Re: Redbeard

Vhanja wrote:

That makes me wonder if he simply hasn't dealt with the death of Redbeard, only tucked it away somewhere deep in his Mind Palace. If you do, then the grief will still be raw everytime you think about it.

I think this is a more likely reason, since all we know is that Redbeard died because he had to be put down for whatever reason.  If he had just suppressed it and put it away in his mind palace, then he might not have been able to ever get over Redbeard's death completely.
Also, Redbeard and his death might represent a time before he was told repeatedly by Mycroft that caring his not an advantage, maybe before he thought too many emotions got in the way of things, so when Redbeard comes up, he gets defensive because he does not want Mycroft to equate him with childlike qualities (emotions about anything, including his grief for his dog.)
All the while, though, if he thinks about playing with Redbeard, he can calm himself.  The grief is one thing, but he still remembers the good times with Redbeard, and going back to them can still bring him comfort.
 

Last edited by Yitzock (May 23, 2015 1:20 pm)


http://orig11.deviantart.net/078e/f/2015/207/f/e/consulting_detective_2_by_sakuranakamura-d92vt40.pnghttp://orig08.deviantart.net/8f4e/f/2015/198/4/2/blogger_by_sakuranakamura-d91o4zv.png
Clueing for looks.
 

May 23, 2015 5:00 pm  #100


Re: Redbeard

I can imagine that the death of Redbeard might also have been the experience that led Sherlock to choose Mycroft's "caring is not an advantage" philosophy. The loss was so painful that he decided to divide himself as much as possible from "the fly in the ointment" that is feelings.


__________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
"We'll live on starlight and crime scenes" - wordstrings
http://i.imgur.com/NzWTIDd.png

Team Hudders!
 
 

Board footera

 

Powered by Boardhost. Create a Free Forum