Ozma wrote:

SilverMoonDragonB wrote:

Swanpride wrote:

Naturally they are in love, and John is knowing that, too. They are deeply in Agape, though, not in Eros

And honestly, to me, that is the love that matters most, that selfless unconditional love. Depending on your point of view, I don't think an Eros kind of love happening between them is so outrageous, it seems fully possible to me. However, several things would need to happen first. At this point in time, no, not happening. But eventually...who knows 
 

I agree with this.

Sherlock's words when John and Mary are about to have their little domestic are telling - he 'chose' Mary, just like he 'chose' Sherlock - they are the kind of people he falls for.

I think at the moment, Sherlock is really showing selfless and unconditional love - really unconditional - whereas John is a little overwhelmed and distracted by the many enormous things that are happening around him.

But I am convinced that the writers are keeping their options open with everything - it doesn't mean it WILL happen, whatever it is (doesn't have to be sexual) -  but they are keeping their options open.

Moffat lies.

Yep! Agreed.  

I am especially convinced now that the more Moffat/Gatiss deny something or say something like "Oh this will never happen", the more likely it is to become true...they're just that sneaky 
 

And I can assure you, I was there when Moffat said, come on you guys, you know me, I LIE. He said 'I am not exactly known for telling the truth, am I"

Marva wrote:

Oh Silver, let's hope so!

I think it is quite natural that John tried to focus on Mary as he was hurt so much by Sherlock being "deaded" . Now his relationship with Mary is a bit shattered, too, while on the other hand Sherlock sacrificed himself in almost all possible ways for him. I think it will need some time for John to understand what has happened (same as for us XD) and that he will re-evaluate his feelings and priorities subsequentley. I am very curious as to which conclusions he will come.

I concur. As we saw in HLV, for more than one reason John needs to sort out some stuff within himself and his life, he needs time to reflect and heal.
Series 3 primarily focused on Sherlock changing, growing and coming to terms with some things, maybe the next series will be centred around John in that area. 

SilverMoonDragonB wrote:

Ozma wrote:

SilverMoonDragonB wrote:

And honestly, to me, that is the love that matters most, that selfless unconditional love. Depending on your point of view, I don't think an Eros kind of love happening between them is so outrageous, it seems fully possible to me. However, several things would need to happen first. At this point in time, no, not happening. But eventually...who knows 
 

I agree with this.

Sherlock's words when John and Mary are about to have their little domestic are telling - he 'chose' Mary, just like he 'chose' Sherlock - they are the kind of people he falls for.

I think at the moment, Sherlock is really showing selfless and unconditional love - really unconditional - whereas John is a little overwhelmed and distracted by the many enormous things that are happening around him.

But I am convinced that the writers are keeping their options open with everything - it doesn't mean it WILL happen, whatever it is (doesn't have to be sexual) -  but they are keeping their options open.

Moffat lies.

Yep! Agreed.  

I am especially convinced now that the more Moffat/Gatiss deny something or say something like "Oh this will never happen", the more likely it is to become true...they're just that sneaky 
 

 
I agree with all of this! 

The last episode really showed two sides of the coin with Sherlock's selfless love and Mary's selfish love.  I think both characters understand where each other are coming from and are willing to do what they feel they have to for John and that's a large part of why they are okay with each other even after all the things that have happened.  They realize they both love John and would do practically anything for him.

John, on the other hand, seems very out of it.  Overwhelmed and strung up seem the perfect ways to describe him this season.  I'm wondering if next season we'll see something happen to cause him snap somehow.  It seems like the outbursts he did have were not enough and he kept his more negative emotions bottled up.  I was mildly surprised he didn't take the gun out and shoot CAM first.

Weirdness wrote:

SilverMoonDragonB wrote:

Ozma wrote:

I agree with this.

Sherlock's words when John and Mary are about to have their little domestic are telling - he 'chose' Mary, just like he 'chose' Sherlock - they are the kind of people he falls for.

I think at the moment, Sherlock is really showing selfless and unconditional love - really unconditional - whereas John is a little overwhelmed and distracted by the many enormous things that are happening around him.

But I am convinced that the writers are keeping their options open with everything - it doesn't mean it WILL happen, whatever it is (doesn't have to be sexual) -  but they are keeping their options open.

Moffat lies.

Yep! Agreed.  

I am especially convinced now that the more Moffat/Gatiss deny something or say something like "Oh this will never happen", the more likely it is to become true...they're just that sneaky 
 

 
I agree with all of this!

The last episode really showed two sides of the coin with Sherlock's selfless love and Mary's selfish love. I think both characters understand where each other are coming from and are willing to do what they feel they have to for John and that's a large part of why they are okay with each other even after all the things that have happened. They realize they both love John and would do practically anything for him.

John, on the other hand, seems very out of it. Overwhelmed and strung up seem the perfect ways to describe him this season. I'm wondering if next season we'll see something happen to cause him snap somehow. It seems like the outbursts he did have were not enough and he kept his more negative emotions bottled up. I was mildly surprised he didn't take the gun out and shoot CAM first.

Exactly, Sherlock's love is selfless, Mary's is selfish....which is why I don't think she and John can last. And I agree with what you said about John as well...I'm worried about him, and Sherlock too. I hope the boys will be alright...it looks like they've got some rough times ahead.
 

Last edited by SilverMoonDragonB (January 13, 2014 1:45 pm)

Ozma wrote:

Swanpride wrote:

I wouldn't call Mary's love totally selfish...even if we believe that trying to keep John out of trouble and unaware of her true identity was mostly born out of the desire to get the marriage she wanted, she could have simply killed Sherlock. CAM wouldn't have said anything either way, nobody would suspect John murdering Sherlock, and she wouldn't have a rival for John's affections any longer. I also wouldn't be surprised if one day she will be the one who steps between John and a bullet.

Maybe she thought that killing Sherlock was going to have too big of an impact on John, so that would have itself an adverse effect on their lives together...in short, she didn't want him depressed.

As for your last point...interesting, very. In all my speculations about how she might croak, I never considered that could be a way.
But with a baby in her? Mmm...not gonna happen....

The baby should be born next time . It´s more or less real time running with the show.

Ok,now I've had some time to gather myself and my thoughts.What an emotionally wrecking and brilliant episode! I've scrolled through a lot of blogs and lot of people are dissapointed with it.Mainly cos Johnlock didn't happen the way they expected.Come on! I think they have watched some other show instead. For me it was full declaration of love.As someone said in earlier post,when Sherlock loves,he loves unconditionally. What more is there? They didn't fall in to eachothers arms in tears at the airport-they didn't have to. This show has been all about subtext and the end scene was dripping with it.
Love Mary,but I can't stop myself from thinking,if the writers want to service the fans and stick to the canon will they "remove" Mary in the next series? I'm not Johnlocker,but they clearly need to move back to 221B,it's the law
And people lamenting about Moriarty being alive,we dont know anything.

Last edited by Edgeucated (January 13, 2014 4:48 pm)

SilverMoonDragonB wrote:

Swanpride wrote:

Naturally they are in love, and John is knowing that, too. They are deeply in Agape, though, not in Eros

And honestly, to me, that is the love that matters most, that selfless unconditional love. Depending on your point of view, I don't think an Eros kind of love happening between them is so outrageous, it seems fully possible to me. However, several things would need to happen first. At this point in time, no, not happening. But eventually...who knows 
 

And they are content with that, for now.

I've only seen HLV once, but did John seem a little jealous when he saw that Janine had "slept over"? He was awfully fixated on the situation, although I suppose you can't blame him, considering Sherlock's lack of a romantic social life (other than the one he has with John when they are running around - lol).
 

Oh yes, what a strong episode...! With lots of things I didn't see coming, with lots of great twists and turns. With such an amazing Martin Freeman, his John breaks my heart over and over again, can't quite believe it myself. (Mattlocked, thanks for that pic from the 'flicking scene', that illustrates just perfectly what I mean.)
Visually it was just great, there were so many scenes that could have right fit into a movie - big screen, please!

Oh, and Sherlock and his 'inner Moriarty'... what a treat! I don't expect to see Moriarty in Series 4, though, but while I was watching it for the first time my jaw just dropped at the very end.

Having only watched His Last Vow once (I'm writing this on Jan. 13, the day after it first aired), I haven't done the necessary pondering to form really good opinions yet.  But I can offer first impressions. Buckle up, ladies and gents,  'cause I get a little silly in some places – but hey, that's what I'm best at.
 
First Impression #1: Moffat and Gatiss worked a little too hard to make Charles Disgusting Magnussen thoroughly unlikable.  He claims he sweats constantly (even though we never see a drop).  He licks Lady Smallwood's face in a yucky close up. He eats food off of Sherlock's plate and rinses his fingers in Sherlock's water glass.  He pisses on the wall in Sherlock's flat.
 
Okay.  We get it. He's evil to the core.  But I think maybe one scene in which we see him acting unconcerned while some poor victim begs him not to ruin his/her life with blackmail info would have been a more convincing way to show dear old Chuck's black rotten soul. Instead we're encouraged to hate him based largely on the way he spreads his bodily fluids around: sweat, saliva, and urine.
 
Gosh, it's too bad he didn't sneeze on somebody.  Then I could have referred to him as Charles Augustus Mucus.  Oh well. Guess it was snot meant to be . . .
 
First Impression #2: I hate to say it, but the way Chucky visualized all that data like it was on a computer monitor was a real cheat.  First, I can't really buy the idea that anybody could hold that much information in their head.  Even Sherlock says he has to "delete" unnecessary info to remember what's important. Second, they presented the data exactly like a computer would do, rather than the elegant manner in which we see Sherlock's reasoning processes through floating words that fade in and out.
 
What are we supposed to gather from this?  That Sherlock needs an upgrade?  That Charles Augustus Microsoft is smarter than Sherlock and Steve Jobs put together?  Hell, that's heresy!
 
First Impression #3: If the Chuckmeister is such a smart cookie, why did he reveal to Sherlock that all his blackmail information was stored in one fragile place – his brain.  No backup files . . . anywhere.  This was a screw up on the part of Moffat and Gatiss too, because all the fans will be quick to realize that Sherlock didn't really need to kill Magnussen.  All Sherlock had to do was tell the world that there were no files (hard copies or computer data) with incriminating info, because it's all stored in Mr. Smartypant's fragile noggin. If Sherlock did that, it would be open season on dear old Charles – a man who is even less popular than Kim Jong-il.  After all, even basketball players don't like Chuck.
 
First Impression #4: We're all going to feel cheated if the Return of Moriarty is just a trick Mycroft used to save money on jet fuel so Sherlock's plane could come right back to airport – and, of course, to save his brother from being sent to the Middle East, the place where tall white guys get beheaded on a regular basis. I know we're all desperately hoping Moffat and Gatiss aren't going to start season 4 with Mike slapping Sherl on the back and saying,  "Just kidding, little bro!  Moriarty is definitely as one with the worms, you might say.  Gotcha on that one, eh?"
 
I haven't a clue (yet) as to what I hope they will do with the idea.  Either Moffat and Gatiss have painted themselves into a corner, or they've devised a brilliant way to bring back Moriarty without doing something dumb like making him a vampire or uploading his consciousness into a big computer. If they do that, we might end up watching Sherlock jack himself into the Matrix and battle Moriarty with slow-motion bullets!
 
Okay, sorry, I'm getting carried away.

Last edited by Bruce Cook (January 13, 2014 6:59 pm)