BBC Sherlock Fan Forum - Serving Sherlockians since February 2012 » I REALIZE it's Probably Not Deliberate

lil · January 22, 2014 12:02 am

Excellent points! SherliB.
Thanks for posting...woohooo another person that gets the clue and why the fall must remain a unexplained magic trick.

so sad if shfans remain the lol of lit circles.

The Doctor · January 22, 2014 4:38 am

Sherli Bakerst wrote:
.. we were discussing types of plots and how they all can be distilled into just a few types. Below are descriptions that I wrote, adapted from info on the website where the info originated; as can be seen, lots of Sherlock fits into these plot types:

For easy reference, below is a synopsis of the seven types of plots as postulated by Aristotle. I have paraphrased the information from this website:
http://peterreeves.suite101.com/what-are-the-seven-basic-plot-definitions-a58402

I assume you are also refering to Campbell's "The Hero with a Thousand faces"?

Fascinating stuff indeed!

lil · January 22, 2014 6:20 am

On the shooting of Magnusson..within this theme ..and SH as a metaphorical godlike figure now...it was kinda predictable.
He can mete out godlike justice.....and make deals with the devil.
And again.,, the building up idols..holding them to impossible standards and then judging them / blaming them when they sort out our problems.

Last edited by lil (January 22, 2014 6:24 am)

besleybean · January 22, 2014 6:39 am

Well Sherlock dealt with CAM, not the devil.
And Sherlock himself denies being god!
Shooting somebody in the head is not justice, it's immoral and rightly illegal.
Who was building Sherlock up as an idiol?
I expect real people to all live by the same standards, only a fictional character gets away with not.
No, I judge and blame then when they carry out immoral acts.
Just as well it's only TV.

lil · January 22, 2014 6:44 am

Ah.., yeah ..metaphorical themes here?
Not literal.

Last edited by lil (January 22, 2014 6:45 am)

Sherli Bakerst · January 23, 2014 3:14 am

lil wrote:
Excellent points! SherliB.
Thanks for posting...woohooo another person that gets the clue and why the fall must remain a unexplained magic trick.

Thanks. Though I don't really agree that the fall has to remain unexplained. I mean, I'm okay if it never is, but I'd prefer that the explanation be provided. Then again, if it's Theory #3, well, maybe I don't want to know after all.

The Doctor wrote:
I assume you are also refering to Campbell's "The Hero with a Thousand Faces"? Fascinating stuff indeed!

Um...I've heard of that but never read it. It occurred to me before seeing your post that I should clarify why I posted about those seven plot types: Previous comments mentioned that lots/all stories or shows included certain themes and Sherlock was no different, so I remembered that other discussion elsewhere and thought that posting something Aristotle had postulated would provide evidence that there is very little that is new under the sun. I can see various scenes from Sherlock exemplified by just about all those plot types.

SherlocklivesinOH · February 8, 2014 2:39 am

Actually the killing of CAM struck me as one of the clearer-cut examples of sacrificing himself for others...and he pretty much rose from the dead yet again (once almost literally...didn't he pretty much die of the shot?...and the second time in the metaphorical sense of at the last minute NOT getting exiled)

besleybean · February 8, 2014 8:38 am

You are right in your opening statement and that's exactly how I see it.
But I've seconds ago posted on another thread about this.
Benedict's view is that Sherlock shot CAM purely cos he'd lost the game and was backed into a corner.

DollPixie · February 8, 2014 3:21 pm

I never got any religious undertones from this show st all. O_o

besleybean · February 8, 2014 4:32 pm

Which just proves the point: you have to look for them, or else(like me) have been previously imbibed in that culture, so they strike you.

SherlocklivesinOH · February 9, 2014 12:44 am

Sherlock may not be any saint, morally speaking, but it does seem like he repeatedly saves masses of his "followers" under circumstances that are almost miraculous....more of a superhero thing than a Christ thing.

The rescue of a Irene seemed like a superhero showing up at the right time.

Though now, in HLV, we have a pretty literal rise from the dead (I admit I didn't catch it at first.)

besleybean · February 9, 2014 8:17 am

But that is no different to what happens to many people, every day, all over the world.
This is just what occurs in medical emegencies.
Plenty of people have been literally dead on the operating table and have thankfully been brought back to life by the wonders of modern medicine.
That is down to real science and not mythical religion.

Last edited by besleybean (February 9, 2014 8:18 am)

saturnR · February 12, 2014 12:36 pm

Religion Vs Science = Religion always wins! And now I know why

Science tells the truth. It tells the facts. It is like a giant catalogue of "this is how the world works" BUT it has no narrative; no central theme; no emotion (sorry but it's true).

Reigion also tells the truth (ehem cough cough). It tells some facts. It's like the Marvel that people had before Marvel was invented, showing "this is how the world works" AND it has a strong narrative; has multiple central themese; & is the most emotive thing on the planet (aside from really good instrumental music).

Since most people are more receptive to emotion rather than to logic. It makes complete sense that in the battle between Religion & Science = Religion will ALWAYS come out on top (as unfortunate as that sounds).

Last edited by saturnR (February 12, 2014 12:40 pm)

February 12, 2014 2:02 pm

IMO, people choose what to believe in because of what they are and how they tick or what they learned and experienced. For some there is the believe in science or in a deity or in nothing whatsoever. For some the celebrity or actor is a super-human and for some it is the fictional hero Holmes or James Bond who serves as a god-figure. The devil is the press-giant then.
In a way science is still made by human beings and we can't see Schroedinger's cat inside the box. Scientist "believe" or can even prove that when we look at things the "thing" changes because we look at it.
What we can learn from Sherlock is that everything can be seen from several perspectives and maybe we will never be able to see the whole or the backside of the moon or the "how he did it". Everybody can read and understand it for themselves.

The writers play with expectations and the clues they provide or the gap they deliberately create as a trap to step into. If we see Sherlock as a god-like figure we are obviously invited to reconsider after series 3.

besleybean · February 12, 2014 6:27 pm

I will never see him that way.

Liberty · September 18, 2014 8:58 pm

I still haven't read all the threads here and just found this one! Yes, I agree that there's religious symbolism in the show.   I posted a while ago about how much Sherlock is shown as Jesus (shown as a saviour, resurrection, time in the wilderness, "crucifixion" at the beginning of TEH, etc.). Now after watching HLV, it looks as if he's virtually immortal (I'm sure Mary meant to kill him, and he virtually died but came back to life), so I agree that he's becoming godlike.

And my absolute favourite!
Mary: Oh, my God.
Sherlock: Not quite.

I think it IS deliberate .

I'd had some thoughts before about the name Madonna (which seemed an odd choice to me) in the Rizla game - obviously that has religious signifcance too. Mary, mother of Jesus, was the immaculate conception - and Mary, mother of baby Watson, was also immaculately conceived, free from original sin five years ago.

The trouble is that I started following this line of thought and realised that it would mean that the baby was Sherlock's (God's), not John's (Joseph's).

I am kidding. But do agree that the symbolism is there even though I don't think it's leading the plot.

Last edited by Liberty (September 18, 2014 9:05 pm)

lil · September 18, 2014 11:39 pm

Yay@lib...I kinda gave up on blahing about this....
but yeah..SH is a metaphorical god..the final problem is goodVevil...somtimes your bad to do good etc..the original and ultimate age old final problem....Moriarty is a devil figure...threatening the heart/soul..the fall is the fall of man.....the virgin is innocent..so he needs to be tempted to sin...via suicide. sin...the resolution of which is....sin is necessary because...goodJohn@evil Mary makes a baby....which is the real resolution to TRF ...which had to remain unexplained to be miracle like....Anderson the betrayer became Anderson the zealot...Irene the fallen woman was still worthy to be saved...and Sherlock can kill Magnusson because now he is ressurected and godlike..though they did have him die.for real/again this time.....he can throw down justice...and of course Mycroft is Lucifer...his archenemy and brother..but meh..coincidence! All of it..

Still you have to see the irony of the gay thing..the whole things a gay bathtub jesus...hilarious!

Don't hit me........

Last edited by lil (September 19, 2014 9:54 am)

Liberty · September 19, 2014 5:26 am

I forgot about Sherlock being a virgin! But I did think that the part on top of Bart's reminded me of the devil taking Jesus to the top of a high building and tempting him. I didn't think of tempting him with suicide - why would somebody be tempted by suicide? But what happens there is that Sherlock switches it round - shows Moriarty that he can be the devil (not one of the angels), and tempts Moriarty to suicide instead.

I'll have to think about Sherlock/God meting out justice. The idea isn't grabbing me at the moment, but it might do - after all, Sherlock ends up having no repercussions for the murder.

The east wind line sounded very biblical to me (yes, I know it's from ACD) so I looked at wikipedia and got this:
Some 17 references to East Wind exist in the Authorized King James Version of the English Old Testament. In chapter 41 of Genesis, the pharaoh's dream, that is interpreted by Joseph, describes seven ears of corn blasted by the east wind. In chapters 10 and 14 of Exodus, the east wind is summoned by Moses to bring the locusts that plague Egypt and to part the Red Sea so that the Children of Israel can escape pharaoh's armies. Several other references exist, most associating the east wind with destruction. Often this destruction is of the wicked by God.

There could be something really big happening in S4!

Zatoichi · September 19, 2014 8:38 am

Liberty wrote:
Often this destruction is of the wicked by God.

There could be something really big happening in S4!

And didn´t Magnussen say: "Oh, she´s so wicked." about Mary..

I think it´s deliberate, too.. Steven Moffat said that while Dr. Who was like an angel aspiring to be human, Sherlock is a man aspiring to be a god. And sometimes the camera makes Sherlock look larger than life and John really tiny next to him, as if they belonged to different species. I´m not sure about the relevance for the plot though.. but the thought is compelling.

Liberty wrote:
The trouble is that I started following this line of thought and realised that it would mean that the baby was Sherlock's (God's), not John's (Joseph's).

I am kidding.

So as soon as baby Watson is grown up the real story about the salvation of humankind starts with a new protagonist..^^ A neat way to make the show run at least as long as Dr. Who! (Also kidding of course..) ^^

Last edited by Zatoichi (September 19, 2014 8:39 am)

Liberty · September 19, 2014 6:12 pm

Vengeance is mine, I will repay, saith the Lord.

I could definitely see a confrontation between Sherlock and Mary, and even him having to kill her. No wonder they filled a whole series with Mary, if they're going to make that sort of plotline in S4. (I would be really pleased to see her as the archenemy in S4 - I would rather it was her than Moriarty).

Yes, they do make Sherlock so tall - and even joke about it. Benedict isn't nearly as tall as Sherlock!

Sherlock ascends to the sky near the end of HLV. He does come back down again, to save humanity yet again!