BBC Sherlock Fan Forum - Serving Sherlockians since February 2012 » Reunion

ancientsgate · January 25, 2014 5:03 am

tonnaree wrote:
It was a little choppy. Everytime John attacked Sherlock the scene would switch and they'd be someplace else.

When John threw himself over the table with his hands aimed at Sherlock's throat, that was a different restaurant than the one later, where they were standing by the counter shouting and then John head butted him? I thought they were the same place. But it would make sense that they'd been asked to move on after the table incident, now that I think about it. I'll have to watch it yet again and try to look at the set, rather than the actors this time. What a chore. Not.

*smile* Poor John... I still smile about Sherlock informining him that Mary DOESN'T like the 'stache. "Oh, brilliant! I really missed THIS!" lol Poor guy.

miriel68 · January 25, 2014 8:30 am

They were in three different restaurants "downgrading" after every fight scene. I found it absolutely brilliant and a great way of editing to show the dynamics of the evening.

ancientsgate · January 25, 2014 8:33 am

miriel68 wrote:
They were in three different restaurants "downgrading" after every fight scene. I found it absolutely brilliant and a great way of editing to show the dynamics of the evening.

Yes, the editing, of the music as well as the scenes, was first rate. I hope the editors win some kind of awards for that episode. I also enjoy the lighting and cinematography in the show.

SherlocklivesinOH · January 26, 2014 12:40 am

Another bad move on Sherlock's part was admitting that he was there at the grave when John made his speech. So John would be not just, "you should have known how I would feel," but "Wait, you actually KNEW how I felt?!"

And then the revelation of how many people WERE in on the plan. Because that makes John feel like Sherlock trusted other people MORE than him, which, for Sherlock, is like saying he has friends closer than John.

besleybean · January 26, 2014 8:19 am

I know, but silly human John...
Sherlock really only told immediate members of his family and those he needed to help make his plan work.

Last edited by besleybean (January 26, 2014 8:19 am)

SherlocklivesinOH · January 26, 2014 8:08 pm

I don't think this is going to happen, (at least not in Season 3) but these writers are perfectly capable of revealing to us later that the whole restaurant thing was staged on both sides...because in fact John knew all along.

@besleybean, as for Sherlock telling "only those he needed to make his plan work," on re-watching the ending part I was struck by how many people that really was, and was struck by the impression that (pardon the expression) it could hardly have killed Sherlock to tell one more person. I mean, there was a risk that one of those people would be co-opted by Moriarty or just spill the beans, and Sherlock TOOK that risk.

The scene, on watching the second time, really made me feel like John was the real intended audience, the one they were staging it for.

SherlocklivesinOH · January 26, 2014 9:14 pm

ancientgate wrote:

e'd forgiven him after he smashed Sherlock in the nose and then heard Mary tell him in the back of the cab that she liked Sherlock. Next morning, he shaved his moustache. That's so like John-- okay, this is the new reality, now let's get on with it. By the time the bomb thing happened, the forgiveness had already taken place in John's heart, but Sherlock just wanted him to say it, and being the bumbling relationship idiot that he is, he turned to trickery and his own kind of warped humor. John's used to telling Sherlock off-- infuriating, maddening bastard! But they both know that nothing can separate a magnet from the north pole, not for long.

Wasn't it after the whole bonfire thing that he shaved off the moustache and went back to Sherlock?

tobeornot221b · January 26, 2014 9:25 pm

SherlocklivesinOH wrote:
Wasn't it after the whole bonfire thing that he shaved off the moustache and went back to Sherlock?

No, he shaved it off before the bonfire. He was just on his way to 221b when he was abducted.

SherlocklivesinOH · January 26, 2014 9:49 pm

tobeornot221b wrote:
SherlocklivesinOH wrote:
Wasn't it after the whole bonfire thing that he shaved off the moustache and went back to Sherlock?

No, he shaved it off before the bonfire. He was just on his way to 221b when he was abducted.

And he shaved because Sherlock didn't like the mustache...or, did it take Sherlock's pointing it out to make him realize Mary didn't actually like it?

tobeornot221b · January 26, 2014 9:50 pm

SherlocklivesinOH wrote:
tobeornot221b wrote:
SherlocklivesinOH wrote:
Wasn't it after the whole bonfire thing that he shaved off the moustache and went back to Sherlock?

No, he shaved it off before the bonfire. He was just on his way to 221b when he was abducted.
And he shaved because Sherlock didn't like the mustache...or, did it take Sherlock's pointing it out to make him realize Mary didn't actually like it?

Everyone hated it. Even Mrs Hudson.

besleybean · January 26, 2014 9:51 pm

It made Mary confess she didn't like it.

Willow · January 26, 2014 10:42 pm

SherlocklivesinOH wrote:
I don't think this is going to happen, (at least not in Season 3) but these writers are perfectly capable of revealing to us later that the whole restaurant thing was staged on both sides...because in fact John knew all along.

@besleybean, as for Sherlock telling "only those he needed to make his plan work," on re-watching the ending part I was struck by how many people that really was, and was struck by the impression that (pardon the expression) it could hardly have killed Sherlock to tell one more person. I mean, there was a risk that one of those people would be co-opted by Moriarty or just spill the beans, and Sherlock TOOK that risk.

The scene, on watching the second time, really made me feel like John was the real intended audience, the one they were staging it for.

Well, the people who knew were his parents, Molly, Mycroft and some of the Baker St Irregulars; I'm not sure why you believe that Moriarty would easily suborn any of those people.

The problem with telling John is that John is hopeless at lying, easily manipulated, jumps to conclusions, and would blab the entire thing to someone who pushed his buttons in five minutes.

Sherlock is facing a murder charge; Moriarty is dead on the roof, and, as I keep on pointing out, it's hard to take down a world wide criminal network from the dock at the Old Bailey when you are on trial for murder. Lestrade would undoubtedly arrest him, and Mrs Hudson has already been tortured in order to extract information about Sherlock in the previous season; Sherlock is not going to put her at risk again. John has many fine qualities but his behavior in TRF demonstrates just how easy it is to manipulate him; he goes rushing off to the supposedly dying Mrs Hudson, pausing only to call Sherlock every name under the sun for his callous refusal to accompany him. John knew perfectly well what Sherlock had done to the man who had tortured Mrs Hudson in SIB and yet he's so hot-headed that he completely forgets all that.

So, it was undoubtedly staged but it was designed to make everyone believe that Sherlock was dead, and whilst Sherlock undoubtedly holds John in the deepest affection he would be stupid to rely on John not behaving like John.

Actually, for the benefit of non-Londoners, I should explain that the Old Bailey is the central criminal court which is handily situated across the road from Bart's; the panning shots from the rooftop include it's dome.

SherlocklivesinOH · January 27, 2014 5:13 pm

The restaurant scene could have started like this:

Sherlock: (takes off glasses): I'm not dead. (sits) Let's have dinner.

(Well, they're already in a restaurant after all. But maybe it's just as well they didn't do that. Enough of that line, maybe?)

besleybean · January 27, 2014 5:33 pm

Might have worked if Mary hadn't been there.

SherlocklivesinOH · January 27, 2014 11:11 pm

It's almost as if John makes the best of both worlds: he forgives Sherlock, he goes back to being friends with him and following him around on cases. But he also follows through with marrying Mary.

He doesn't say, "Now that Sherlock is back, I'm going to stay single so I can put him first." And Sherlock, much to his credit, never seems to ask for or expect that. He says his "What life, I've been away," line before he knows of Mary's existence. But he never says, "Why get married now that I'm back?"

So, John does go back to his friendship with Sherlock, but in a sense, he moves on as well...moves on from the relationship he had with Sherlock pre-Reichenbach, where Sherlock was his whole life... to a more...balanced? approach. Which could be kind of emotional defense mechanism: from now on, if Sherlock disappears, or something really happens to him, or there's some kind of split between them, John won't have lost everything. (He thinks.)

Well, we'll see because I still have to see HLV.

Zatoichi · January 31, 2014 7:20 am

Wow, now I have to see the reunion scene again - I was also a bit disappointed at first that they made it into a comedy, but after reading this thread it makes perfect sense to me.. Sherlock trying to avoid emotional turmoil/sentimental scenes by placing it in the public, annoying John with the moustache-thing, keeping the tone casual and making jokes.. yees, that sounds very much like him. And it makes it possible to go on afterwards without any embarrassed feelings on both sides.

Much better than John fainting into his arms.. he is John after all, and he is being very british about everything.

ancientsgate · January 31, 2014 9:16 am

Zatoichi wrote:
Much better than John fainting into his arms.. he is John after all, and he is being very british about everything.

Soldier and doctor-- both professions require loads of discipline, thinking on one's feet, courage and intelligence, and John has all of that, in spades. He is no more or less "British" than the very posh, know-it-all, socially unskilled (rude) and fearless Sherlock, after all. But John, he who took the Hippocratic oath to "first, do no harm" has also killed people, both as a soldier and as Sherlock's companion-- the man has GUTS, and he doesn't faint in the face of the hard stuff, either literally or figuratively.

Davina · January 31, 2014 9:20 am

Was just about to say the same. I'll also add that in the canon Dr. John Watson does faint. What has changed in British society since ACD wrote this that stops this seeming so likely a response from a 'man'?

ancientsgate · January 31, 2014 9:28 am

Davina wrote:
Was just about to say the same. I'll also add that in the canon Dr. John Watson does faint. What has changed in British society since ACD wrote this that stops this seeming so likely a response from a 'man'?

I think of the swooning-fainting thing as being very Victorian, which of course the original Sherlock and John were-- Victorians. Mebbe ACD thought he was writing the Victorian version of a romance novel. *smile*

Zatoichi · January 31, 2014 10:51 am

ancientsgate wrote:
Davina wrote:
Was just about to say the same. I'll also add that in the canon Dr. John Watson does faint. What has changed in British society since ACD wrote this that stops this seeming so likely a response from a 'man'?
I think of the swooning-fainting thing as being very Victorian, which of course the original Sherlock and John were-- Victorians. Mebbe ACD thought he was writing the Victorian version of a romance novel. *smile*

I think quite a lot has changed since Victorian times?

I just wanted to oppose the 'fainting John' to his characterization of himself as being "British" about Sherlock´s death in TRF, which he defines as accepting reality and moving on with life.. (Keep calm and date ladies?) So such a character does not just black out when reality shifts again. And yeah, he has GUTS, bad-ass John..