BBC Sherlock Fan Forum - Serving Sherlockians since February 2012 » Reunion

SherlocklivesinOH · January 20, 2014 5:06 am

The other thing that struck me was, what REALLY got to John was less that HE wasn't in on it, and more the fact that so many other people WERE. Because that implies that he is not the person Sherlock is closest to in the world. I think it would have been different if absolutely no one (or maybe just Mycroft) had known. Because then it's "Sherlock Holmes keeps even the persons closest to him in the dark," (which kind of paraphrases a quote from canon).

But this way, I think John was made to feel like Sherlock chose to be more "intimate" (in a sense, I can't think of a better word) with others than with him. Especially given that one of those others was Molly, who is/was in love with Sherlock, making her kind of a rival, whether John wants to admit it or not.

But I wonder if Sherlock might have sincerely believed that he gave John clues to figure it out? In the flashbacks to the roof scene, I realized that "it's a magic trick," was code for conveying the truth to John...to Moriarty and anyone listening who was Moriarty's ally it would sound like Sherlock was confessing he was a fraud. But to John, he was saying, "this suicide is all going to be a magic trick."

However, that does NOT get Sherlock off the hook, in my book: because he should have judged John's deductive abilities more accurately.

Last edited by SherlocklivesinOH (January 20, 2014 5:21 am)

sj4iy · January 20, 2014 5:34 am

SherlocklivesinOH wrote:
The other thing that struck me was, what REALLY got to John was less that HE wasn't in on it, and more the fact that so many other people WERE. Because that implies that he is not the person Sherlock is closest to in the world. I think it would have been different if absolutely no one (or maybe just Mycroft) had known. Because then it's "Sherlock Holmes keeps even the persons closest to him in the dark," (which kind of paraphrases a quote from canon).

But this way, I think John was made to feel like Sherlock chose to be more "intimate" (in a sense, I can't think of a better word) with others than with him. Especially given that one of those others was Molly, who is/was in love with Sherlock, making her kind of a rival, whether John wants to admit it or not.

But I wonder if Sherlock might have sincerely believed that he gave John clues to figure it out? In the flashbacks to the roof scene, I realized that "it's a magic trick," was code for conveying the truth to John...to Moriarty and anyone listening who was Moriarty's ally it would sound like Sherlock was confessing he was a fraud. But to John, he was saying, "this suicide is all going to be a magic trick."

However, that does NOT get Sherlock off the hook, in my book: because he should have judged John's deductive abilities more accurately.

That might be it...

However, I think John was the one the was necessary to keep 'in the dark'. He's the closest to Sherlock, and if anyone really questioned whether or not Sherlock was dead, they would immediately start watching John Watson. They probably WERE watching John Watson, and Sherlock need anonymity in order to destroy Moriarty's network.

SherlocklivesinOH · January 20, 2014 6:02 am

You do know that in the original, Watson faints upon seeing Holmes, (and the next thing he knows, he wakes up more or less in Holmes' arms). Jeremy Brett's "reviving Watson" was WAY homoerotic.

Is anyone besides me disappointed that they didn't use that?

SherlocklivesinOH · January 20, 2014 6:03 am

sj4iy wrote:
sherlockskitty wrote:
I think Sherlock knew that John wasn't gonna easily forgive him for keeping him in the dark, for two whole years. But I don't think he expected that John would attack him. None of us did. THAT was a surprise, for me. (but I loved it cos it was different than it was, in the canon)
Actually, I think quite the opposite. I think he grossy underestimated just how easy it would be to 'waltz' back into John's life as evidenced by:

1. Making a joke out of it by dressing up as the waiter to 'surprise' him
2. His comment to Mycroft that he could 'jump out of a cake'
3. Telling Mycroft that John had no life without him
4. Sherlock not actually, sincerely apologizing for what he did until after John was nearly killed

He really didn't think it would be hard to come back in and pick up his life just the way he had left it, and it took him by complete shock to find that he wouldn't be able to do that as easily as he had imagined. I COMPLETELY imagined John would attack him...it just fits the personalities of both of the characters.

The "What life? I've been away." line SAYS IT ALL. Sherlock really had no clue that John would be doing anything other than waiting for him to come back. And frankly, in canon and also in the Brett series, we get this impression about Watson too. He doesn't seem to move on. He seems to be trying to hang on to his life with Holmes.

In our review of EMPT in the "Book Club," someone really slammed the story for the unrealism of Watson's quick forgiveness...but to be honest, I would have preferred the series to stay true to that... but that's partly my addiction to "Johnlock."

Last edited by SherlocklivesinOH (January 20, 2014 6:05 am)

ancientsgate · January 20, 2014 8:22 am

Ozma wrote:
Just after John actually realises that it's not the waiter talking to him but Sherlock...and after those beautiful seconds of amazing brilliant acting by Martin, where he just stares at him... John then puts his fist down on the table.

Do you think Sherlock...feared for his life, at that moment? Like, do you think he was actually scared?

No. Nervous. Hyped-up. On edge.

He knew that facing John would probably be the single hardest thing he'd have to handle-manage about his return. Sherlock is emotionally and professionally invested in John. As much as Sherlock's able to, he cares what John thinks, and he knows that The Work suffers when John isn't around, so he needs him back at his side. He could have approached John anywhere for the big reveal, but he chose instead to do it in a swanky white linen restaurant-- why? Because he knows John Watson, knows what he's capable of, and he could be fairly sure that John wouldn't actually kill him in such a place, when he found out what he'd done.

So, scared? No, doubtful. But definitely on edge.

SusiGo · January 20, 2014 8:25 am

And I think in this very moment he realises what he has done to John. Before with Mycroft he was quite arrogant, no life without him, jump out of a cake - but when he confronts John and sees his reaction he is at a loss and tries for comedy. I think he is quite helpless in this situation, out of his depth. But not scared of John.

ancientsgate · January 20, 2014 8:45 am

SusiGo wrote:
And I think in this very moment he realises what he has done to John. Before with Mycroft he was quite arrogant, no life without him, jump out of a cake - but when he confronts John and sees his reaction he is at a loss and tries for comedy. I think he is quite helpless in this situation, out of his depth. But not scared of John.

Well said, Susi. I agree on all counts.

Sherlock had intellectualized John's life in the last two years and then what John's reaction to his reappearing might be, but when finding himself face to face with the reality-- the shock, the anger, the volcano of emotion, Sherlock came off as an absolute a**, trying for humor to diffuse the situation, and it was a disaster.

SherlocklivesinOH · January 20, 2014 5:13 pm

The timeline of this series has always been a little vague. To be honest, when I realized that the 3rd episode of Season 2 was going to be Sherlock faking his death, I felt like, "It's too soon for that."

How much time do you think this episode covered? How much time in between the restaurant scene and John's kidnapping?

Was John on his way to "make up" with Sherlock when he was kidnapped...or do you think he might not have done so if he hadn't been kidnapped?

Oh, and when John first saw Sherlock...was anyone else disappointed he didn't pass out, which he does in canon?

And it does seem like Sherlock's timing was particularly unfortunate. (I know he couldn't come back any sooner than he had dismantled Moriarty's network.) It seems like his reappearance comes JUST when John was beginning to move on. Any time earlier and John might have found it easier to pick up where they left off. (Perhaps John really was hoping/imagining at some earlier point after The Fall that it was all a trick.)

Last edited by SherlocklivesinOH (January 20, 2014 8:37 pm)

SusiGo · January 20, 2014 8:59 pm

I was not disappointed at all. It would not be in character with the John we know. Tbh, I find it a bit odd that he faints in Canon but here - shock, anger, disbelief but not fainting. Moreover, Martin had mentioned before that they would not go for Canon in this instance because it did not feel right. And for anyone who likes an unconscious John tended to by Sherlock we have the aftermath of the bonfire scene.

SolarSystem · January 20, 2014 9:36 pm

No disappointment for me, either. I absolutely love what they've come up with for the very first scene with John and Sherlock. Martin does a fantastic job, I always hold my breath when I watch this scene... when John realises that it's Sherlock, how he gets up from his chair and almost can't breath... amazing. I feel so sorry for him... and I'm glad he doesn't faint. It works perfectly for me this way. And honestly, what do you do with an unconscious John? At that point the scene would be over.

Last edited by SolarSystem (January 20, 2014 9:37 pm)

SherlocklivesinOH · January 22, 2014 3:26 am

It has occurred to me how REALLY bad Sherlock's timing was. Not just in interrupting the dinner, but the particular day/moment he picked to come back.

Now, obviously he wasn't going to reveal himself before he'd finished with Moriarty's network.

BUT it does seem like John stayed in the "denial," phase of grief for a long time, and maybe even had (what he thought were) fantasies about Sherlock not being dead. He really seemed, at the beginning of TEH, to be at the very beginning of moving on. So just a little sooner and he would have more readily picked up where they left off.

ancientsgate · January 22, 2014 4:24 am

SusiGo wrote:
I was not disappointed at all. It would not be in character with the John we know. Tbh, I find it a bit odd that he faints in Canon but here - shock, anger, disbelief but not fainting. Moreover, Martin had mentioned before that they would not go for Canon in this instance because it did not feel right. And for anyone who likes an unconscious John tended to by Sherlock we have the aftermath of the bonfire scene.

Fainting was a very Victorian thing to do. That's where our smelling salts, fainting couches, etc, come from, that era. ACD probably thought he was writing that era's version of a soap opera, hence the dramatic swoon that he decided would befall a very shocked John. Our 21st century men wouldn't be apt to pass out [as MF said, it doesn't feel right to them], that is, unless something happened in the way of an injury or accident, like Mrs. Hudson beaming one of them with a frying pan, lol.

SherlocklivesinOH · January 23, 2014 12:30 am

Do you think when John stormed out of the restaurant he seriously intended to have nothing more to do with Sherlock?

I do think his anger was realistic; what wasn't realistic was for him to forgive right after another stunt that involved Sherlock tricking him and messing with his mind (i.e., the bomb.)

Unless, because he was reminded of how dangerous life with Sherlock can be, he was thinking something like, "God knows what danger he must have been in the last two years; maybe it's just as well he protected me from it."

And maybe, he's afraid to know too much about what Sherlock gets up to out of his sight. Example: how was there so conveniently a body available to "play" Sherlock's corpse.

Or maybe the deception will continue to be an issue between them (again, haven't seen the other episodes.)

And, though I know enough about TSofT and HLV to realize this isn't going to happen, I wouldn't put it past Moffit and Gattis to reveal in a subsequent episode that John was in on the plan / onto Sherlock all along, and the scene in the restaurant was totally staged!

I think it's odd that Mary giggles over her fiance having a fight, and doesn't seem to care either 1) that Sherlock hurt the man she supposedly loves, or 2) that if they did make up, Sherlock would occupy a lot of John's time.

Last edited by SherlocklivesinOH (January 23, 2014 12:34 am)

ancientsgate · January 23, 2014 3:00 am

SherlocklivesinOH wrote:
Do you think when John stormed out of the restaurant he seriously intended to have nothing more to do with Sherlock?

No. I presume one of the reasons he was so very very pissed off, besides the obvious one, is that he would have known immediately that now that Sherlock had returned, John would never free himself from the Magnet That Is Sherlock Holmes. Sherlock is John's truth north, and John would always feel pulled towards him-- he even felt that pull from what he thought was beyond the grave. But how infuriating! No wonder he knocked Sherlock down, later split his lip and smashed his nose in. Poor John-- my heart went out to him, but I also found the whole thing hysterically funny-- he could no more free himself from Sherlock than sprout wings and fly to the moon. Imagine how maddening that would be-- maddening and delightful, in turns.

I do think his anger was realistic; what wasn't realistic was for him to forgive right after another stunt that involved Sherlock tricking him and messing with his mind (i.e., the bomb.)

IMO he'd already forgiven him by then. IMO again, he'd forgiven him after he smashed Sherlock in the nose and then heard Mary tell him in the back of the cab that she liked Sherlock. Next morning, he shaved his moustache. That's so like John-- okay, this is the new reality, now let's get on with it. By the time the bomb thing happened, the forgiveness had already taken place in John's heart, but Sherlock just wanted him to say it, and being the bumbling relationship idiot that he is, he turned to trickery and his own kind of warped humor. John's used to telling Sherlock off-- infuriating, maddening bastard! But they both know that nothing can separate a magnet from the north pole, not for long.

And maybe, he's afraid to know too much about what Sherlock gets up to out of his sight. Example: how was there so conveniently a body available to "play" Sherlock's corpse.

I doubt John Watson is afraid of any damned thing. Not that I've ever seen. He gets wicked frustrated that Sherlock sometimes seems to have the survival instincts of a gnat, but I imagine, after all this time, he's started to trust Sherlock to know how to stay alive, if nothing else.

I think it's odd that Mary giggles over her fiance having a fight, and doesn't seem to care either 1) that Sherlock hurt the man she supposedly loves, or 2) that if they did make up, Sherlock would occupy a lot of John's time.

Mary is a piece of work, something we haven't seen much of yet in episode 3.1. There's whoa!more of Mary coming in the next two episodes, from what few minor spoilers I've seen.

Sherlock has a strange effect on people-- as John shouted in the Chinese takeaway, AM I THE ONLY ONE WHO'S REACTING TO THIS LIKE A HUMAN BEING? Walking beside or mixed up in the coattails of Sherlock Holmes must often seem like skimming along the outer edges of The Twilight Zone, methinks.

January 23, 2014 1:46 pm

I love the reunion scene, so well played by both of them.

I wasnt sure why Sherlock had to choose this evening but I guess it was about meeting John as soon as possible. And I like what has been said in this thread why he chose a public place.

I love his first attempts at revelaing himself so totally not expecting that John wouldnt recognise him immiadately. I think he knew an assault would be coming when John slammed his fist into the table and then he tried his joke to make the situation better.

There is much more to come with Mary.
What I really think is interesting that he is so focussed on John that he doesnt deduce Mary right away.

SherlocklivesinOH · January 25, 2014 1:09 am

I doubt John Watson is afraid of any damned thing.

By "afraid to know" I meant that John wouldn't want to know if Sherlock did any REALLY bad things. He wouldn't want to have to suspect that Sherlock could have been involved in someone's death, or known someone was going to die, in order to use the body.

tonnaree · January 25, 2014 1:40 am

"I think it's odd that Mary giggles over her fiance having a fight, and doesn't seem to care either "

She does care. She cares a lot. When Sherlock first revels himself she is as outraged as John. When the boys are staring at each other you can hear her in the back ground giving Sherlock hell. You can tell from her reactions that she knows exactly who this person is, what he means to John and what he's done.

She only giggles after they've been thrown out of 2 different resturaunts and by that point I think I would've been giggling too.

SherlocklivesinOH · January 25, 2014 2:48 am

tonnaree wrote:
"I think it's odd that Mary giggles over her fiance having a fight, and doesn't seem to care either "

She does care. She cares a lot. When Sherlock first revels himself she is as outraged as John. When the boys are staring at each other you can hear her in the back ground giving Sherlock hell. You can tell from her reactions that she knows exactly who this person is, what he means to John and what he's done.

She only giggles after they've been thrown out of 2 different resturaunts and by that point I think I would've been giggling too.

I don't rememeber her being mad, but the PBS version was supposed to be uncut so I don't think it's edited out...

I didn't quite get that they were switching restaurants...I mean, maybe I did, but it was done kind of choppily, with the scene cutting from one to the other?

tonnaree · January 25, 2014 2:51 am

It was a little choppy. Everytime John attacked Sherlock the scene would switch and they'd be someplace else.

ancientsgate · January 25, 2014 4:59 am

SherlocklivesinOH wrote:
I don't rememeber her being mad, but the PBS version was supposed to be uncut so I don't think it's edited out...

She quietly squawks at Sherlock in the fancy restaurant... oh my god, do you KNOW what you've done? Cluck, cluck.

I didn't quite get that they were switching restaurants...I mean, maybe I did, but it was done kind of choppily, with the scene cutting from one to the other?

Thrown out of the fancy restaurant for having a barney on the floor, like two drunks in a pub. Next scene is in a Chinese takeaway, and they undoubtedly got thrown out of there for having not one but TWO physical altercations, not to mention the shouting match.