BBC Sherlock Fan Forum - Serving Sherlockians since February 2012 » Little Archie

January 9, 2014 9:57 am

Still haven't seen the episode but just by reading your posts about Sherlock being a bit childish, him mentioning himself being the child between John and Mary and his behaviour towards Archie I'd like to talk about my impression:

Sherlock often behaves a bit childish and playful. He is aware of that and it's a consequence of his way of thinking and living in his world.
It has nothing to do with naivete or being silly. It might be a result of his feeling on a wrong planet sometimes. And more so because he doesn't take things too seriously to distance himself and avoid prejudice and bias.
Take the hat. It is in fact just a hat without any additional meaning. A cap with earflaps. The next step of thinking is to give it an addtional meaning. Death frisbee. You can only do that if you don't think of Victorian London and Holmes in a deer stalker.

If you are able to look at things like a child it gives you another perspective. A child sees a maggot and there is no conception of death and sorrow or mourning, fear and whatever people think and usually imply.
A child without any knowledge about maggots and emotional "baggage" can just see them and the child's reaction is "cool".

Usually people lose this ability to see things like a child. They learn to know the social meaning and emotional background and it burdens them and hinder their conception.

In Buddhist or Zen thinking you may learn to really look at things without too much background emotions. It's not that you have no concept of the social meaning but you try another maybe advanced way of thinking and perception.

January 9, 2014 10:09 am

Another point might be that Sherlock is IMO seen through John's eyes in the third series. On the one hand he likes to feel cared for (who doesn't) but John regains a bit self respect and can psychologically speaking get the upper hand sometimes. Humanises Sherlock.
In Johnlock words the "child" undertones can even be a save place for John to be and see Sherlock in. No grown man, no danger place to go and maybe acknowledge his feelings for a man (if there are any).

Jacco111 · January 9, 2014 10:25 am

Sherlock Holmes does have childish elements indeed. In a very interesting interview, Jeremy Brett discussed the popularity of Holmes among children. He said: "And I think I know why the children love him and that’s because Sir Arthur Conan Doyle endowed Holmes with all the sensibilities of a child – up to the age of eight. Then, at the age of eight, of course you’re told not to look out of the window, umm, get on with your Latin syntax, and they begin to diminish those extra senses. Holmes has them."

Criosdan · January 9, 2014 10:53 am

Jacco111 wrote:
Sherlock Holmes does have childish elements indeed. In a very interesting interview, Jeremy Brett discussed the popularity of Holmes among children. He said: "And I think I know why the children love him and that’s because Sir Arthur Conan Doyle endowed Holmes with all the sensibilities of a child – up to the age of eight. Then, at the age of eight, of course you’re told not to look out of the window, umm, get on with your Latin syntax, and they begin to diminish those extra senses. Holmes has them."

That's an interesting theory. I was about 8 years when I started reading the Sherlock Holmes stuff.

Jacco111 · January 9, 2014 10:56 am

So was I, Criosdan.

Sherlock Holmes · January 10, 2014 12:16 am

Archie basically solved the case.

Davina · January 10, 2014 6:08 pm

From the start of the first scene with Archie, he and Sherlock seem to be having a staring contest or who will break first contest. To me it seems that little Archie did not want to wear what was expected of him and could not be trusted to speak or act as expected. Since he is a little 'different' it was thought that, perhaps, Sherlock (very similar is many ways) should be the one to talk to him about the wedding.

Archie seems to be a miniature Sherlock in many ways, perhaps just what Sherlock himself was like at that age. Sherlock sees himself in the child, the child sees himself in Sherlock, that is why they get on well. That is why Sherlock asks Archie for the solution later at the wedding.

SherlocklivesinOH · February 28, 2014 10:38 pm

Westwood! wrote:
I love little Archie!! I think Sherlock would be great with children because he treats them as grown ups and they understand that! I would like to see him with mary and john's baby but I have a bad feeling about His last vow..Anyway in the original books he goes along well with homeless children!

I think a big part of the Archie thing was showing how good Sherlock could be with children, in part because of his own child-like-ness (which would be consistent with Asperger's).

Sherlock: Grown-ups like that sort of thing.
Archie: Why?
Sherlock: I don't know, I'll ask one. (Subtext: I'm not one myself.)

This scene made me believe that part of why Sherlock shows he will do anything to protect Mary is that he wants to protect Baby Watson. (Assuming the baby IS a Watson.)

But in this episode we see both that he loves John and that he likes children, so I begin to believe he will care a lot about a child that is part John Watson, so to speak.

And yes, Archie could be the modern equivalent of a Baker Street Irregular, but I thought that was the Homeless Network?

besleybean · February 28, 2014 10:40 pm

It is.
Archie is the wrong class.

Liberty · August 10, 2014 5:55 am

“I remember being a 12-year-old kid thinking, Oh, why didn’t we see Sherlock be the best man? Please, can we see that? That would be the best story in the whole world, and I don’t care if there’s a crime in it or not, because it must have been the best and worst speech of all time!” (Steven Moffat)

I don't think Archie is so much a mini-Sherlock as a mini Steven! It seems odd that a 12 year old would be particularly interested in seeing a wedding, but of course this was a 12 year old writer who was fascinated by Sherlock. I thought it was funny that he went on to write the speech that he'd wanted to see at 12 (also kind of funny that he misses out the actual wedding altogether and turns the speech into the main event!). I do think Archie is Steven as a child, actually getting to be there and watching the speech that he'd wanted to see. Archie/Steven gets to have some one-to-one with Sherlock, looking at excitingly gory pictures together, gets to hug him and even helps him solve a case! It's a sweet little bit of wish fulfilment.

Last edited by Liberty (August 10, 2014 2:38 pm)

Sherlockismyfix · August 10, 2014 11:24 am

Liberty, very insightful! I think you may be right.

I did not especially like HLV as I think Sherlock behaved enormously out of character. (Prancing between the tables and slapping himself? It felt like an entirely different show.) It struck me as very self-indulgent on the part of the writers, so your quote from Moffatt makes a lot off sense, and actually makes me like the show a little better. I just read Moffatt's whole comment, and now I'll have to rewatch the episode.

BTW, was the little Archie actor a Moffatt? Steven uses his son a couple of times in the show, once as the voice of the child in TGG, and as young Sherlock in HLV. Little Archie looks a LOT like the young Sherlock in HLV.

Last edited by Sherlockismyfix (August 10, 2014 11:25 am)

besleybean · August 10, 2014 11:36 am

No it's Louis Moffat in both instances you mentioned, but Archie in not related in any way.
I wish I could remember the Brit TV ad he is currently in...

tonnaree · August 10, 2014 11:54 am

I think Archie deserves his own spin off show!

Sherlockismyfix · August 10, 2014 12:33 pm

tonnaree wrote:
I think Archie deserves his own spin off show!

I agree! I would totally watch this!

sherlocks_daughter · November 29, 2014 8:52 am

I feel like the authors are taunting us with Archie. They're trying to give us Sherlock's backstory, without actually giving us Sherlock's backstory. I agree with many of the comments above: Sherlock treats Archie with the same dignity and respect he wished to have been treated with when he was a child. Now we have a small group of "Sherlocks" forming within the television show: Billy, Archie, and of course Sherlock himself. Both Billy and Archie are typical people off the streets who possess an amazing mind like Sherlock. Maybe Mofftiss is trying to humanize Sherlock?

SusiGo · December 30, 2014 12:05 pm

I had another idea about this - Sherlock mirroring Mycroft.

He does not view himself as one of the adults and thereby becomes a sort of big brother to Archie. He does the things a big brother should do - take Archie seriously, explain things, and accept that sometimes the little one may be cleverer than himself. Which brings us to:

I’m the clever one.
Both of us thought you were an idiot.
You were always so stupid.
You are a very stupid little boy.
Such a disappointment.
Mummy and Daddy are very cross.

Imagine a sensitive boy hearing those things over and over again from his elder brother. From TSoT and HLV we know that they are deeply ingrained in Sherlock’s mind and that he still regards Mycroft as a sort of inner judge.

So how does Sherlock react when Archie proves to be the clever one?

"Oh, hello again, Archie. What’s your theory? Get this right and there’s a headless nun in it for you."
He is kind. He listens. He takes Archie seriously. He promises a reward. And he bends forward to be on eye level with the boy.

But the most wonderful thing about this is that Sherlock does not spoil or flatter Archie but treats him as an equal. Something Mycroft never did.

Vhanja · December 30, 2014 12:09 pm

SusiGo - that analysis almost gave me a lump in my throat. So true! But oddly enough, Mycroft being "a rubbish big brother" also makes me a bit sad - for Mycroft. He should know better.

SusiGo · December 30, 2014 12:38 pm

Yes, and I wonder if we will learn more about their youth. Because for me the essential question is how Mycroft became the way he is. He influenced Sherlock and formed him according to his own example but where does Mycroft's attitude come from? Surely not just out of intellectual superiority.

We are presented with two loving parents but of course this is how they are now in old age. We have no idea what Mr and Mrs Holmes were like thirty or forty years ago when the boys were little. The only hint we get is Mrs Holmes giving up her career for children and the very foggy "other one" remark which does not explain if it applies to another Holmes sibling or someone completely different.

Last edited by SusiGo (December 30, 2014 12:41 pm)

besleybean · December 30, 2014 12:41 pm

Though Sherlock is clearly the favourite child!

SusiGo · December 30, 2014 12:44 pm

Which might be a hint. But then the question is why Sherlock should have given himself over to Mycroft's influence if he felt loved or even preferred by his parents?