BBC Sherlock Fan Forum - Serving Sherlockians since February 2012 » The "new" Sherlock

dartmoordoggers · January 7, 2014 2:50 pm

Stayin Alive wrote:
SilverMoonDragonB wrote:
In some ways, it feels like they're indeed setting us up for something terrible to happen...maybe Sherlock's newfound connection with his emotions will somehow cause something to happen, either he'll make a mistake or do something emotional that'll result in something.

That makes sense considering CAM in HLV trailer, can be heard saying that "Sherlock has made one enormous mistake that will destroy the lives of everyone he loves and everything that he holds dear!"

Ive been wondering whether Sherlock has already made the enormous mistake and we have all missed the clue(s). There are some odd one-liners etc. that don't seem to make much sense. For example during his initial conversation with the bridesmaid he says 'sorry; there was one more deduction there I was expecting', and then looks perplexed.

Are the Bloody Guardsman and the Major clues in themselves? Gatiss/Moffats way of telling us we have already been stabbed in the heart. We just dont realise it yet.

silverblaze · January 7, 2014 2:51 pm

Swanpride wrote:
And you know, after his little speech, I see the "I don't have friends" line from HoB differently...perhaps it was less about Sherlock not feeling any friendship and more about him not allowing any friendship and not believing that anyone could truly be his friend.

I always took it to mean something like that, especially because he modifies it in the graveyard scene. It's those kinds of dialogue that make me love this show so much. Unreliable narrator, words used as weapons, exactly how people talk in real life. In HoB he seems to say it in a 'go away, I'm upset' kind of way, and he succeeds very effectively, a bit too effectively.

There's this 'emotions/connections makes you vulnerable' theme throughout the series and for some reason I find that so attractive. Maybe because we all know what that means, in our own unique ways.

silverblaze · January 7, 2014 3:05 pm

SusiGo wrote:
For me the line "I've distanced myself from feelings" from HoB was always a clue to his dealings with emotions. He can feel them but usually chooses not to and suppresses them concentrating on his work and pure intellect instead. This is what has changed now. He allows himself these feelings and admits them openly, at least now and then.

That! And maybe that's gonna be the mistake that the trailer is referring to. It's been set up in episode 1, Mycroft warned him repeatedly. And now, apparantly, Mark warned us too with his Redbeard tweet, but maybe my imagination is taking over now.

SusiGo wrote:
And "I don't have friends" can mean two things: not having friends because he does not want/need them or because he thinks nobody wants to have him as a friend. The latter assumption being supported by Sherlock's surprise and shock when John tells him he is his best friend.

In practice, those two meanings would turn out more or less the same. If you believe no-one is ever gonna be your friend, you'd be stupid to allow yourself to feel any attachments to anyone.

Kerkerian · January 7, 2014 3:08 pm

Stayin Alive wrote:
I must say that after building up characters for 2 seasons and then just changing them DRAMATICALLY overnight is not what I expected. I'm quite surprised at how Sherlock's and Mycroft's characters have been radically transformed and softened. Even Mrs. Hudson has evolved considerably! John and Lestrade are still good 'ol John and Lestrade lol!

Yes, yes, yes! I know they're developing the characters and making them more "human" blah blah blah , but don't you guys think that this is a bit TOO fast a transformation?

If this drastic shift in tone is actually to mess with us and set us up for a sinister and dark last episode, then "Bravo!" to those mischievous little buggers called Moffat and Gatis! You nearly had me on that one... lol!

Think about it. Everyone is distracted by the comedy and change of tone, but they did promise a more gripping and intense ending than season 2. So I definitely can't wait for HLV...

Just remember Sherlock's words in TRF: It's just a magic trick. If you look closely, the characters haven't actually changed that much, some things are just more pronounced in certain situations. Mycroft for example is still rather aloof and treats Sherlock like a little boy even though he clearly cares for him; his concern however doesn't reach far enough to prevent him from being "beaten to a pulp", as Sherlock put it, or slightly gloating in the realization that he retains the upper hand when it comes to Sherlock getting involved with other people.

Even Sherlock, who appears so much more affable- that does mainly include those he has considered his friends before TEH. Even in the first two seasons, there are moments in which Sherlock gives someone a genuine smile or reigns in his temper.
Of course he has changed (anything else wouldn't have been credible after those two years), but it's not that exxagerated if you ask me; opposite other people, he behaves just like he has always done, keeping them at bay and regarding them as strange.
He also was rather rude to Mrs Hudson when she brought him his morning tea, just as we're wont of him.

SusiGo · January 7, 2014 3:17 pm

I agree with you in most points, Kerkerian, but not in the last. Rudeness was my first thought and he is rude, but for a reason. Iif you remember what comes right after Mrs Hudson has left: the sad look to John's empty chair and walking into his bedroom saying: "Right then. Into battle."
I think he wanted to get rid of her because she was talking about the bridesmaid and the lost friendship and marriage changing everything and how he always lives alone (which is not true, btw.). He does not want to talk about all that. And least of all on this very day.

SolarSystem · January 7, 2014 3:17 pm

SusiGo wrote:
I agree with you. For me the line "I've distanced myself from feelings" from HoB was always a clue to his dealings with emotions. He can feel them but usually chooses not to and suppresses them concentrating on his work and pure intellect instead. This is what has changed now. He allows himself these feelings and admits them openly, at least now and then.

Right. When I first saw that scene I immediately thought 'Spock' - and John says it right then and there, Spock. Vulcans do have emotions but they have learned to suppress them so they don't get in the way of logic. Logic is more important than emotions, and furthermore emotions often can do more harm than good - as can be seen with the Romulans, who are remotely related to Vulcans and who do emotions and cause all sorts of trouble. (Sorry for that little Star Trek excursion... )
So, right: Sherlock does have emotions (well, of course he does, he's human after all), but he tended to suppress them for a long time. And obviously something has happened to him while he's been away so that now he at least occasionally allows himself to feel something.

Stayin Alive · January 7, 2014 3:18 pm

dartmoordoggers wrote:
Stayin Alive wrote:
SilverMoonDragonB wrote:
In some ways, it feels like they're indeed setting us up for something terrible to happen...maybe Sherlock's newfound connection with his emotions will somehow cause something to happen, either he'll make a mistake or do something emotional that'll result in something.

That makes sense considering CAM in HLV trailer, can be heard saying that "Sherlock has made one enormous mistake that will destroy the lives of everyone he loves and everything that he holds dear!"
Ive been wondering whether Sherlock has already made the enormous mistake and we have all missed the clue(s). There are some odd one-liners etc. that don't seem to make much sense. For example during his initial conversation with the bridesmaid he says 'sorry; there was one more deduction there I was expecting', and then looks perplexed.

Are the Bloody Guardsman and the Major clues in themselves? Gatiss/Moffats way of telling us we have already been stabbed in the heart. We just dont realise it yet.

Seems likely I guess. I won't be surprised if clues have been scattered throughout those 2 episodes and we missed them. But I won't dwell too much on those anymore after waiting 2 years for an explaination that never came...

SolarSystem · January 7, 2014 3:20 pm

SusiGo wrote:
I agree with you in most points, Kerkerian, but not in the last. Rudeness was my first thought and he is rude, but for a reason. Iif you remember what comes right after Mrs Hudson has left: the sad look to John's empty chair and walking into his bedroom saying: "Right then. Into battle."
I think he wanted to get rid of her because she was talking about the bridesmaid and the lost friendship and marriage changing everything and how he always lives alone (which is not true, btw.). He does not want to talk about all that. And least of all on this very day.

Yes. I call that self-protection.

Kerkerian · January 7, 2014 3:21 pm

SusiGo wrote:
I agree with you in most points, Kerkerian, but not in the last. Rudeness was my first thought and he is rude, but for a reason. Iif you remember what comes right after Mrs Hudson has left: the sad look to John's empty chair and walking into his bedroom saying: "Right then. Into battle."
I think he wanted to get rid of her because she was talking about the bridesmaid and the lost friendship and marriage changing everything and how he always lives alone (which is not true, btw.). He does not want to talk about all that. And least of all on this very day.

That is entirely correct and I think the look with which he regards John's chair is most heartbreaking, but he was rude nevertheless- just like he was in ASiB after Mycroft had told 'Hudders' to shut up- he was upset and made his brother apologize, but afterwards he said "though do in fact shut up".

My point is that this deliberate rudeness towards her is just as he used it before- in both cases, he doesn't really mean it and he still loves her, but he talks to her just as he pleases, whatever the reason.

Last edited by Kerkerian (January 7, 2014 3:21 pm)

SusiGo · January 7, 2014 3:24 pm

I agree again. As for the rudeness - has anyone so far commented the beginning of his best man speech? This was more cynical and rude than most of things he said in every other episode.

silverblaze · January 7, 2014 4:44 pm

I agree that the characters haven't changed too much. We just haven't seen a great deal of them, so now we just see another part. Mycroft in particular, the only true characterisation we had of him was about five lines long at the midpoint of SiB. Everything in TRF was a lie, in all the other parts he was fighting with Sherlock or impressing John.
Only Sherlock changed a bit, he's more open and affectionate than before and a lot more mature, much to Mycroft's concern and annoyance. Not sure why, guess he missed John when he was away. But how he suddenly learned all that is a bit of a mystery, it just never seems to happen.

tonnaree · January 7, 2014 7:27 pm

I really need a good fanfic with Sherloc and John and Mary celebrating Christmas together.

kittykat · January 7, 2014 7:30 pm

I've decided to write one of Sherlock teaching John to dance ^^

tonnaree · January 7, 2014 7:32 pm

kittykat wrote:
I've decided to write one of Sherlock teaching John to dance ^^

That too! With fan art to go with......

silverblaze · January 7, 2014 7:40 pm

That's so great about this show, enough gaps to be filled with our imagination.

Sherli Bakerst · January 8, 2014 2:27 am

SolarSystem wrote:
Right. When I first saw that scene I immediately thought 'Spock' - and John says it right then and there, Spock. Vulcans do have emotions but they have learned to suppress them so they don't get in the way of logic. Logic is more important than emotions, and furthermore emotions often can do more harm than good - as can be seen with the Romulans, who are remotely related to Vulcans and who do emotions and cause all sorts of trouble. (Sorry for that little Star Trek excursion... )
So, right: Sherlock does have emotions (well, of course he does, he's human after all), but he tended to suppress them for a long time. And obviously something has happened to him while he's been away so that now he at least occasionally allows himself to feel something.

No, quite all right! I just found this thread--don't know why it took so long--and my first thought after reading the first few posts was: Sherlock is just like Spock, and John even said so, too. As you said, Vulcans have emotions but they have learned to control them. And the reason for that is, when their emotions are unleashed, violence and other terrible things ensue. We can see that with Sherlock: When he allows himself to show emotion, he tends to go overboard: His facial expressions are over the top, what he says is over the top, he gets falling-down drunk. Something, that we the viewers haven't been privy to--unless it's the impending marriage, though I think that's only part of it--has set him off and his emotions seem to be running rampant right now. Just like what happened to Spock (and the others) in "The Naked Time." In the end, Spock recovers and reverts to his closed-off and tightly-controlled self. I suspect that's what will happen to Sherlock too, after experiencing some sort of cataclysm in the next episode.

RavenMorganLeigh · January 8, 2014 3:35 am

silverblaze wrote:
RavenMorganLeigh wrote:
Emotionally shut down-- I think that's closer to it, I think it's a defense mechanism that, somehow, he's lost.
That's how I like to imagine him. And I want to ignore any characterisation that contradicts that.

Me, too!

To elaborate on that point; I have this wierd theory (based on some studies I've done as a counselor); I keep thinking that Sherlock is probably Highly Sensistive-- meaning it's all data, from every possible direction, all the time. It's too much, too loud, too hot, too cold, too...everything. Add to that being thought of as a freak for most of his life-- people like that can and will shut down emotionally, to the point of seeming robotic. They build behavioral mental walls to shield themselves from--too much. But Sherlock let John in, and I think the dam broke, and whatever he went through during the Hiatus broke him even more.

It's as if his mind palace is crumbling. (shudder!)

Of course, this is only my headcanon, but it's making me want to do some writing, so I'll sign off, now.

RavenMorganLeigh · January 8, 2014 3:37 am

Sherli Bakerst wrote:
SolarSystem wrote:
Right. When I first saw that scene I immediately thought 'Spock' - and John says it right then and there, Spock. Vulcans do have emotions but they have learned to suppress them so they don't get in the way of logic. Logic is more important than emotions, and furthermore emotions often can do more harm than good - as can be seen with the Romulans, who are remotely related to Vulcans and who do emotions and cause all sorts of trouble. (Sorry for that little Star Trek excursion... )
So, right: Sherlock does have emotions (well, of course he does, he's human after all), but he tended to suppress them for a long time. And obviously something has happened to him while he's been away so that now he at least occasionally allows himself to feel something.
No, quite all right! I just found this thread--don't know why it took so long--and my first thought after reading the first few posts was: Sherlock is just like Spock, and John even said so, too. As you said, Vulcans have emotions but they have learned to control them. And the reason for that is, when their emotions are unleashed, violence and other terrible things ensue. We can see that with Sherlock: When he allows himself to show emotion, he tends to go overboard: His facial expressions are over the top, what he says is over the top, he gets falling-down drunk. Something, that we the viewers haven't been privy to--unless it's the impending marriage, though I think that's only part of it--has set him off and his emotions seem to be running rampant right now. Just like what happened to Spock (and the others) in "The Naked Time." In the end, Spock recovers and reverts to his closed-off and tightly-controlled self. I suspect that's what will happen to Sherlock too, after experiencing some sort of cataclysm in the next episode.

I think it's interesting that when Spock (half human) loses it-- he *really* loses it.

lindyhopper883 · January 8, 2014 3:41 am

I'm wondering if anyone else has noticed the change in point of view. Seasons 1&2 were from the pov of John, which follows the books. However TEH was about 1/2, 1/2 Sherlock/John and TSoF was almost completely from Sherlock's point of view.

We've been given a window into Sherlock's mind and how it works (his visualising himself on the train in E1 and his discussion with the 5 "ghost boyfriend" women.) Before, we only saw glimpses of Sherlock's deducing, nothing so detailed. It's given us additional insight into his relationship with his brother, who looks down at him and leads his thought process, and that The Woman is still in his head.

Maybe this "new Sherlock" is partially because we have more insight into his head as well.

Also just wondering what you all think about this switch in point of view.

Last edited by lindyhopper883 (January 8, 2014 3:42 am)

Sherli Bakerst · January 8, 2014 3:47 am

RavenMorganLeigh wrote:
I think it's interesting that when Spock (half human) loses it-- he *really* loses it.

Exactly! So when Sherlock asks John, when playing the "Who Am I?" game, if he's human, and John replies, "Sometimes," it could be another nod to Sherlock being like Spock and those two sentient beings having lots in common with each other.