BBC Sherlock Fan Forum - Serving Sherlockians since February 2012 » The Bonfire & the Terrorist Plot

Sherlock Holmes · January 6, 2014 12:12 am

On John's blog it says that him getting put on the bonfire was nothing to do with the terrorist plot. But I'd immediately assumed the otherwise...

I mean...he was put on a BONFIRE...he WAS Guy Fawkes...surely, that was a really big clue as to what the terrorist plot/bomb would be about?

Whisky · January 6, 2014 12:35 am

Haven't read the blog post yet.
I was confused too... because when Sherlock realises what's going to happen (I think it's in 221b with John), doesn't he even say "vanishes... you kidnapped and nearly burned to death... at a fireworks..." (didn't understand every word). I thought then that it was a clue. But then Sherlock later said he didn't know what the bonfire and kidnapping was about...?
But then again, I don't get much of the case plot anyway in this episode. Either it's very complex, or just dull. That sounds harsh, sorry still trying to befriend the episode ;)

Davina · January 6, 2014 11:15 pm

I think that might be because it is only part of a complete case. One of a series of events. Not all of which have been introduced yet.

silverblaze · January 7, 2014 11:07 am

The terrorist plot was only the bomb in the tube. The bonfire was CAM.

anjaH_alias · January 7, 2014 3:20 pm

Sherlock Holmes wrote:
On John's blog it says that him getting put on the bonfire was nothing to do with the terrorist plot. But I'd immediately assumed the otherwise...

I mean...he was put on a BONFIRE...he WAS Guy Fawkes...surely, that was a really big clue as to what the terrorist plot/bomb would be about?

Maybe because I am not british , I never assumed that this had to do with the bomb alert. Mary got the text, the riddle, and it seemed to be something very personal. I think it´s a typical Gatiss-woven triangle story with the angles John/Guy - Bonfire/CAM - Bomb (as red herring). Unless CAM had something to do with the bomb as well, but this is not what I am thinking right now.

Last edited by anjaH_alias (January 7, 2014 3:22 pm)

zeratul · January 10, 2014 8:35 pm

Well I was wondering if somebody wanted to thread / hurt Mary, as she got the messages... but the guy watching the video and looking at Sherlock... maybe he tried to get the proof he is alive... hmm I hope there will be more on that on the third episode..

Sherlock Holmes · January 10, 2014 9:56 pm

But...Guy Fawkes, bonfire, blowing up Parliament...they're all connected. Just a coincidence?

besleybean · January 10, 2014 10:40 pm

We know what Holmes bros say about coincidence...

Ormond Sacker · January 11, 2014 6:22 pm

Okay my tuppence. CAM is behind kidnapping John but not behind the bombing of Parliament. He (CAM) has John kidnapped and put inside the Guy because he knows Sherlock is investigating the terror plot and he wants it stopped but can't tell Sherlock directly what is happening and how. He hopes that Sherlock will draw the inference between Guy Fawkes Day and bombing of Parliament.

Well it's no weirder than any other theory.

besleybean · January 11, 2014 6:47 pm

Tee Hee.

Mirthxx · January 12, 2014 10:52 am

Ormond Sacker wrote:
Okay my tuppence. CAM is behind kidnapping John but not behind the bombing of Parliament. He (CAM) has John kidnapped and put inside the Guy because he knows Sherlock is investigating the terror plot and he wants it stopped but can't tell Sherlock directly what is happening and how. He hopes that Sherlock will draw the inference between Guy Fawkes Day and bombing of Parliament.

Well it's no weirder than any other theory.

This is exactly what I think. I brought it up when discussing CAM on First Thoughts thread in SOT.
It was Sherlock discussing that very fact that gave him the lightning bolt idea of connecting the dots around Guy Fawkes. He may well of got there, but would he have realised in time. As it was, they only just made it.

I think that CAM, being a blackmailer, would have people of power on his leash. If the bomber was successful, he would have to start again and may well be vulnerable until he reconnected his leash to someone of equal power. I think this was about directing Sherlock without risking contact. I also don't think he cared if John made it or not, as long as Sherlock got the message.

I'm surprised that Sherlock is not more bothered by the fact that Mary recieved the text, and yet messages after that were directed to him. But, maybe Sherlock has a new number and has not updated his website at that point meaning he is unable to contact Sherlock. We do not know ALL the facts. (A bit like Sherlocks theory of the waiters waterproof phone - I've known guys proudly show off thier divers watch that will still work thousands of feet underwater, even though the deepest it will get is the bath - does not mean they know how to dive, let alone have ever done it)

I do also wonder though, if it was more about 'burning' John. The skin on CAMS face is not quite right, and I wonder if he is a burn victim, but it's not enough visual to see. Something about that face is not quite natrual though.

Mxx

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silverblaze · January 12, 2014 11:26 am

Why would there be a connection? I really don't see any. They're just two crimes that happened roughly at the same time.

Mirthxx · January 12, 2014 11:46 am

I just find it a really big coincidence that while investigating what turns out to be a reinactment of Guy Fawkes Plot, John is kidnapped and placed on the fire, much like Guy Fawkes. That is the main connection.

In addition to this, it is while are they trying to summarise what they know already about the terroist plot to try and reach a conclusion that Sherlock brings up John nearly being Guy Fawkes himself, it is exactly at this point that the Guy Fawkes Plot falls into place in his mind and he realises what the terroists have planned.

They could kill John a hundred different ways, yet they chose the one method that takes Sherlock on the path to the Guy Fawkes Plot. That's a really big conincidence.

But, as you say. Some of us may be just reading too much into it. Guess we will have to wait and see.

Mxx

silverblaze · January 12, 2014 12:21 pm

I'm not British, I don't know what a Guy Fawkes plot is. It could just be a theme or a motif, like the Grimm references.

Ormond Sacker · January 12, 2014 12:37 pm

Not British but if I recall correctly Guy Fawkes was a Catholic who tried to blow up the (Protestant) Parliament back in sixteen something. They were going to use gunpowder to do it, so the plot was called the Gunpowder Plot.
He and his fellow conspirators was arrested before they could do so and were executed for their troubles, but ever since Guy Fawkes effigies have been burned on 5th November, like you burn a traitor.
There is a rhyme that goes with it (John and Sherlock quotes part of it)

Remember, remember
The 5th of November
Gunpowder, treason and plot,
I see no reason
Why gunpowder treason
Should ever be forgot.

The whole thing plays a major part in the movie "V for Vendetta" too.

Mirthxx · January 12, 2014 12:47 pm

Traditionally on November 5th, we make a flamable maniquin that we put at the top of the bonfire (known as The Guy) who represents Guy Fawkes. Traditionally he is responsible for a plot to bomb parliment (when in actual fact he was arrested guarding the explosives for the plot). The guy atop the bonfire is to 'Remember, Remember, The fifth of november, Gunpowder, Treason and Plot' to celebrate the failure (although in some cases to remember what he tried to do).

However, it is worth pointing out that tradition and history are not true to each other. Guy Fawkes was not the main instigator of the Gunpowder Plot to overthrow the government, merely the one they caught.

You will be able to find plenty on the internet to tell you more in detail, bearing in mind all my knowledge is just what has been handed down. Guy Fawkes is The Guy effigy we burn every year, (Hence the references to John Watson being The Guy/GuyFawkes). The Gunpowder Plot is the original plot to blow up the Government (The bomb on the train under Paliment). November 5th should also take you to the pages you need, along with the government making it official to celebrate the Kings suvival.

Here is one to get you started: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guy_Fawkes

To the English they are linked, one to the other, as long as we can remember. Maybe that is why some of us think that the Sherlock cases are linked, becuase the subject is always linked to us??

Mxx

Last edited by Mirthxx (January 12, 2014 12:50 pm)

Mirthxx · January 12, 2014 12:54 pm

Ormond Sacker wrote:
Not British but if I recall correctly Guy Fawkes was a Catholic who tried to blow up the (Protestant) Parliament back in sixteen something. They were going to use gunpowder to do it, so the plot was called the Gunpowder Plot.
He and his fellow conspirators was arrested before they could do so and were executed for their troubles, but ever since Guy Fawkes effigies have been burned on 5th November, like you burn a traitor.
There is a rhyme that goes with it (John and Sherlock quotes part of it)

Remember, remember
The 5th of November
Gunpowder, treason and plot,
I see no reason
Why gunpowder treason
Should ever be forgot.

The whole thing plays a major part in the movie "V for Vendetta" too.

Yeah, pretty much it.

Mxx

silverblaze · January 12, 2014 1:05 pm

Mirthxx wrote:
To the English they are linked, one to the other, as long as we can remember. Maybe that is why some of us think that the Sherlock cases are linked, becuase the subject is always linked to us??

I see, I never made the connection. Still I don't think they are linked in the fictional universe, it's just a Guy Fawkes themed episode. But who knows, we're gonna find out very soon.

What a gruesome tradition, btw, pretending to burn a man alive.

KeepersPrice · January 12, 2014 1:28 pm

I think it will be linked somehow because we see CAM in his lair at the end of TEH just like we had the hint of Moriarty being behind the cabbie's plot at the end of ASiP. Then we hear a reference to CAM at the wedding through the telegram so we know he is lurking just like we had a glimpse of Moriarty behind the Chinese smuggling ring in TBB. Then in TGG Moriarty actually shows himself to begin the game with Sherlock in earnest. In HLV today I believe CAM will finally show himself. It's even likely that the plot will continue with him into series 4 if things are not resolved in HLV just as they did with Moriarty into Series 2. As you say, we shall see very soon.

Mirthxx · January 12, 2014 1:30 pm

silverblaze wrote:
Mirthxx wrote:
To the English they are linked, one to the other, as long as we can remember. Maybe that is why some of us think that the Sherlock cases are linked, becuase the subject is always linked to us??
I see, I never made the connection. Still I don't think they are linked in the fictional universe, it's just a Guy Fawkes themed episode. But who knows, we're gonna find out very soon.

What a gruesome tradition, btw, pretending to burn a man alive.

Yes, it most def is. They never had faces and they were clothed in peoples throw aways, generally made out of newspaper stuffed tights. I dread to think of the nightmares kids would have if they watched a face melt. It's slowly fading away now, don't see so many Guy's on the bonfires, it's more about the fireworks now.

If someone asked me now to go watch a human effigy being burnt in celebration I'd probably back away fast, but Guy Fawkes is one of those blind spots that I grew up with and find it fully acceptable - although it is nicer without him.

Mxx