BBC Sherlock Fan Forum - Serving Sherlockians since February 2012 » So what do you think about our Consulting Detective?

anjaH_alias · January 2, 2014 2:22 pm

I know, but what has this to do with the mind palace scene - made up or not - in the train?

SilverMoonDragonB · January 2, 2014 2:24 pm

Sherlock Holmes wrote:
Remember that the beginning part of the train scene was all quite genuine. Sherlock didn't know there was an off switch until he got down on his knees and looked inside it. Then he decided to use the extra time to manipulate John for a bit of fun.

I thought most of his reactions, dialogues and actions throughout the episode were perfectly in character, although he did do rather a lot of laughing. I really loved the scene in the restaurant. It's in keeping with the canon too, where Holmes returns in disguise, completely not realising the affect it would have on Watson.

I agree with SolarSystem who said earlier that somehow Sherlock has both regressed and advanced at the same time. It's quite strange, that aspect. Some of his interactions seem much more well developed. He was able to thank Molly like an actual normal human being!

I think he didn't really realise how much he needed John on his cases until he tried going on one with Molly. He missed their banter, he even missed John taking the piss out of him. He needs someone to ground him and pull him back down to earth, not kiss his arse all the time.

If that scene in Serbia was anything to go by, Sherlock has had a pretty rough time of it the last two years. Those kind of experiences would definitely affect and change a person on some level.

Good points Boss, and I very much concur with most of them . I don't necessarily think Sherlock faked that last bit of the train scene for a bit of fun though (not only for that reason anyway), Sherlock is an ass (but we love him anyway of course! ) but...I'll just repeat what I said to a friend last night (after watching the episode and basically fangirling myself crazy, hehe) ; it was "fake" yes, in a way, but not entirely (I think Sherlock wasn't just refering to not know how to turn off all the lights) ...because when you really focus on his initial reaction to first seeing John in the restaurant, that moment between the two of them...that wasn't fake emotion on Sherlock's part, you could read the uncertainty, the vulnerability clear in his face...I like to think, that though Sherlock was "faking" that part with the bomb, he didn't entirely fake his emotions...because in a way, he did feel that way...so I guess you could say, it wouldn't have been hard for him to fake because it was close to the truth...
He genuinely wants John's forgiveness.

Last edited by SilverMoonDragonB (January 2, 2014 2:26 pm)

Marva · January 2, 2014 2:25 pm

sorry I wanted to quote this text here ;-):

Swanpride wrote:
Just because he could do it pre-John it doesn't mean that he can do it now. Like he said, you can't really feel loneliness if you don't know how the lack of it feels like. He didn't knew what he was missing beforehand, but once he had it, he could not just go back to how he was before. And I think in the end, he is glad that he get to know the feeling. He was positively scoffing about Mycrofts distain for friendship.

anjaH_alias · January 2, 2014 2:28 pm

SilverMoonDragonB wrote:
Good points Boss, and I very much concur with most of them . I don't necessarily think Sherlock faked that last bit of the train scene for a bit of fun though (not only for that reason anyway), Sherlock is an ass (but we love him anyway of course! ) but...I'll just repeat what I said to a friend last night (after watching the episode and basically fangirling myself crazy, hehe) ; it was "fake" yes, in a way, but not entirely (I think Sherlock wasn't just refering to not know how to turn off all the lights) ...because when you really focus on his initial reaction to first seeing John in the restaurant, that moment between the two of them...that wasn't fake emotion on Sherlock's part, you could read the uncertainty, the vulnerability clear in his face...I like to think, that though Sherlock was "faking" that part with the bomb, he didn't entirely fake his emotions...because in a way, he did feel that way...so I guess you could say, it wouldn't have been hard for him to fake because it was close to the truth...
He genuinely wants John's forgiveness.

I agree with everything.

SilverMoonDragonB · January 2, 2014 2:30 pm

Marva wrote:
sorry I wanted to quote this text here ;-):

Swanpride wrote:
Just because he could do it pre-John it doesn't mean that he can do it now. Like he said, you can't really feel loneliness if you don't know how the lack of it feels like. He didn't knew what he was missing beforehand, but once he had it, he could not just go back to how he was before. And I think in the end, he is glad that he get to know the feeling. He was positively scoffing about Mycrofts distain for friendship.

Agreed!

SilverMoonDragonB · January 2, 2014 2:32 pm

anjaH_alias wrote:
SilverMoonDragonB wrote:
Good points Boss, and I very much concur with most of them . I don't necessarily think Sherlock faked that last bit of the train scene for a bit of fun though (not only for that reason anyway), Sherlock is an ass (but we love him anyway of course! ) but...I'll just repeat what I said to a friend last night (after watching the episode and basically fangirling myself crazy, hehe) ; it was "fake" yes, in a way, but not entirely (I think Sherlock wasn't just refering to not know how to turn off all the lights) ...because when you really focus on his initial reaction to first seeing John in the restaurant, that moment between the two of them...that wasn't fake emotion on Sherlock's part, you could read the uncertainty, the vulnerability clear in his face...I like to think, that though Sherlock was "faking" that part with the bomb, he didn't entirely fake his emotions...because in a way, he did feel that way...so I guess you could say, it wouldn't have been hard for him to fake because it was close to the truth...
He genuinely wants John's forgiveness.

I agree with everything.

He deserves a hug just as much as John does...I'm glad Greg did it for me

Sherlock Holmes · January 2, 2014 2:38 pm

SilverMoonDragonB wrote:
Sherlock Holmes wrote:
Remember that the beginning part of the train scene was all quite genuine. Sherlock didn't know there was an off switch until he got down on his knees and looked inside it. Then he decided to use the extra time to manipulate John for a bit of fun.

I thought most of his reactions, dialogues and actions throughout the episode were perfectly in character, although he did do rather a lot of laughing. I really loved the scene in the restaurant. It's in keeping with the canon too, where Holmes returns in disguise, completely not realising the affect it would have on Watson.

I agree with SolarSystem who said earlier that somehow Sherlock has both regressed and advanced at the same time. It's quite strange, that aspect. Some of his interactions seem much more well developed. He was able to thank Molly like an actual normal human being!

I think he didn't really realise how much he needed John on his cases until he tried going on one with Molly. He missed their banter, he even missed John taking the piss out of him. He needs someone to ground him and pull him back down to earth, not kiss his arse all the time.

If that scene in Serbia was anything to go by, Sherlock has had a pretty rough time of it the last two years. Those kind of experiences would definitely affect and change a person on some level.
Good points Boss, and I very much concur with most of them . I don't necessarily think Sherlock faked that last bit of the train scene for a bit of fun though (not only for that reason anyway), Sherlock is an ass (but we love him anyway of course! ) but...I'll just repeat what I said to a friend last night (after watching the episode and basically fangirling myself crazy, hehe) ; it was "fake" yes, in a way, but not entirely (I think Sherlock wasn't just refering to not know how to turn off all the lights) ...because when you really focus on his initial reaction to first seeing John in the restaurant, that moment between the two of them...that wasn't fake emotion on Sherlock's part, you could read the uncertainty, the vulnerability clear in his face...I like to think, that though Sherlock was "faking" that part with the bomb, he didn't entirely fake his emotions...because in a way, he did feel that way...so I guess you could say, it wouldn't have been hard for him to fake because it was close to the truth...
He genuinely wants John's forgiveness.

Maybe "acting" is the only way he can actually express his emotions. If he's putting on a show and it's all part of a general facade, he can actually end up saying how he really feels and not freezing up about it.

SilverMoonDragonB · January 2, 2014 2:39 pm

Sherlock Holmes wrote:
SilverMoonDragonB wrote:
Sherlock Holmes wrote:
Remember that the beginning part of the train scene was all quite genuine. Sherlock didn't know there was an off switch until he got down on his knees and looked inside it. Then he decided to use the extra time to manipulate John for a bit of fun.

I thought most of his reactions, dialogues and actions throughout the episode were perfectly in character, although he did do rather a lot of laughing. I really loved the scene in the restaurant. It's in keeping with the canon too, where Holmes returns in disguise, completely not realising the affect it would have on Watson.

I agree with SolarSystem who said earlier that somehow Sherlock has both regressed and advanced at the same time. It's quite strange, that aspect. Some of his interactions seem much more well developed. He was able to thank Molly like an actual normal human being!

I think he didn't really realise how much he needed John on his cases until he tried going on one with Molly. He missed their banter, he even missed John taking the piss out of him. He needs someone to ground him and pull him back down to earth, not kiss his arse all the time.

If that scene in Serbia was anything to go by, Sherlock has had a pretty rough time of it the last two years. Those kind of experiences would definitely affect and change a person on some level.
Good points Boss, and I very much concur with most of them . I don't necessarily think Sherlock faked that last bit of the train scene for a bit of fun though (not only for that reason anyway), Sherlock is an ass (but we love him anyway of course! ) but...I'll just repeat what I said to a friend last night (after watching the episode and basically fangirling myself crazy, hehe) ; it was "fake" yes, in a way, but not entirely (I think Sherlock wasn't just refering to not know how to turn off all the lights) ...because when you really focus on his initial reaction to first seeing John in the restaurant, that moment between the two of them...that wasn't fake emotion on Sherlock's part, you could read the uncertainty, the vulnerability clear in his face...I like to think, that though Sherlock was "faking" that part with the bomb, he didn't entirely fake his emotions...because in a way, he did feel that way...so I guess you could say, it wouldn't have been hard for him to fake because it was close to the truth...
He genuinely wants John's forgiveness.

Maybe "acting" is the only way he can actually express his emotions. If he's putting on a show and it's all part of a general facade, he can actually end up saying how he really feels and not freezing up about it.

*nods*

anjaH_alias · January 2, 2014 2:40 pm

Good point. That´s like with the "surprise scene"in the restaurant. He acts like a slapstick Chaplin to get rid of his insecurity .

The_Gun_Flip · January 2, 2014 3:09 pm

I think there are a few scenes when Sherlock appears to be a bit more unstable than usual. Especially the Jack the Ripper crime-scene where he's talking to John. I mean, he'll talk to John when John's not there, we know that, but this seemed a bit more crazy. I thought his laughter had elements of mania. And his sentimentality is showing all over the place, with Molly, with Mycroft. Then there's that scene with John on the train. Bit not good.

But then, as BC said, he's regressed and who the heck knows what happened to him during those 2 years away. I don't think this 'new' Sherlock is for keeps... I'm hoping we'll see some character progression over the next 2 episodes. Perhaps this manic energy and overconfidence will get them into trouble?

SusiGo · January 2, 2014 3:46 pm

You are right, he seems a bit erratic and sometimes bordering manic. And then again he has really sweet moments like when he says goodbye that day to Molly. And he has made some progress in dealing with other people.
What struck me in the scene where he "hears" John in his mind was that he did not remember the things that meant so much to him - amazing, quite extraordinary, etc. - but only negative things like "show off" and "jealous".

Sherlock Holmes · January 2, 2014 3:52 pm

I kind of like the idea of this slightly mentally unstable Sherlock. That's how I'd always written him post-hiatus so it fits with my head canons. He's spent two years essentially on his own...maybe he's seen things and done things that have mentally scarred him.

SilverMoonDragonB · January 2, 2014 4:00 pm

Sherlock Holmes wrote:
I kind of like the idea of this slightly mentally unstable Sherlock. That's how I'd always written him post-hiatus so it fits with my head canons. He's spent two years essentially on his own...maybe he's seen things and done things that have mentally scarred him.

It would make sense for him to be at least slightly unstable, as I've said, who knows what he's gone through? Not even Sherlock Holmes would be completely impervious to whatever trauma he was exposed to.

SusiGo · January 2, 2014 4:12 pm

On a lighter note - does anyone appreciate Sherlock actually buying AND eating chips for himself? He has changed indeed.

sj4iy · January 2, 2014 4:13 pm

Seems to me that Sherlock hasn't changed a bit, tbh. He basically put his life on hold for 2 years and expected everyone else to do the same. When he tries to 'come back', he's shocked that he can't. He's unstable because he's facing his previous life without John, and he's really not sure what to do. I don't think he's traumatized...simply off-kilter and trying to find his groove again.

SilverMoonDragonB · January 2, 2014 4:16 pm

sj4iy wrote:
Seems to me that Sherlock hasn't changed a bit, tbh. He basically put his life on hold for 2 years and expected everyone else to do the same. When he tries to 'come back', he's shocked that he can't. He's unstable because he's facing his previous life without John, and he's really not sure what to do. I don't think he's traumatized...simply off-kilter and trying to find his groove again.

I believe it's a combination of both. With Sherlock, how he's truly feeling and why is never really straightforward, at least not often.

kittykat · January 2, 2014 4:17 pm

SusiGo wrote:
On a lighter note - does anyone appreciate Sherlock actually buying AND eating chips for himself? He has changed indeed.

Can you blame him? Fish and chips are amazing

SilverMoonDragonB · January 2, 2014 4:18 pm

SusiGo wrote:
On a lighter note - does anyone appreciate Sherlock actually buying AND eating chips for himself? He has changed indeed.

Haha, I noticed that instantly!

besleybean · January 2, 2014 4:23 pm

And that must warrant as the most dramatic chips throw down!
Literally, the chips are down.

SusiGo · January 2, 2014 4:36 pm

True.