BBC Sherlock Fan Forum - Serving Sherlockians since February 2012 » So what do you think about our Consulting Detective?

gently69 · January 2, 2014 12:32 pm

Mrs. Watson wrote:
gently69 wrote:
SolarSystem wrote:
I can understand that he thought (and felt) that with John it would be the most difficult. But to me that doesn't explain what he did in that situation with the bomb. There is a difference between being insecure/ having no idea how John will react/maybe even being afraid of his reaction and acting like a complete &§)(&ZLJBD&%§&=)(§/)(.
Really, I felt that Sherlock was on the right track there on the train - and then he totally fu*** it up. Granted, John laughed in the end, but to me it didn't feel right.
Yes that was a little bit strange. In the end I missed Sherlock never "seriously" said sorry to John... without any action that shifts the whole situation. But this is the only point I'm complaining about.
He did say "Sorry" seriously once, when John went to 221B (after Mom & Daddy Holmes left). But for me the real serious moment between them and what I felt was an unspoken "sorry" was at the end when John tells Sherlock about his speech at the graveyard and Sherlock says "I heard you". The way he says it and his face are both (IMHO) saying "I know I hurt you and I'm really sorry". I loved that scene.

I MUST watch it again. Concentrate on this. Was too late yesterday to watch the whole episode once more. This evening...

gently69 · January 2, 2014 12:34 pm

SusiGo wrote:
Mrs Watson, I agree with you.

As for Benedict not playing the torture scene himself ...

Hahaha... zombies... all of them...

LoveIsAViciousMotivator · January 2, 2014 12:48 pm

I can't help but question why Sherlock is acting this way. This change is jarring, but we never saw what had happened to Sherlock in two years. Despite this shocking change, I wonder if it would be explained?

I think, after two years without John, Molly, Lestrade, and Mrs. Hudson, Sherlock felt lonely. I think that makes sense considering the scene that occurred between Sherlock and Mycroft where Mycroft said he wasn't lonely and Sherlock asks how would he know? Sherlock was lonely and this new attitude is a coping mechanism. He missed them, especailly John. He hears John's voice when he is thinking because subconsciously, he misses and needs that companionship.

At the end of the episode, I just felt bad for Sherlock.

Marva · January 2, 2014 1:16 pm

let's have a look how Sherlock behaved towards John (from my memory after watching it once):

- Sherlock "jumps out of the cake" in the restaurant because he has no idea what he did to John- perfectly in character I would say
- John reacts very angry and pissed (also quite understandable)
- Sherlock just shruggs "well John is not there in the picture anymore" and takes Molly as a substitute. It seems that he doesn't know how much attached he is to John, he only realizes it during the Jack-the-Ripper scene because he always hears John's voice. That is quite odd imo, he really thinks to believe at first that he can just leave John behind.
- John is getting kidnapped and Sherlock rescues him very dramatically, yelling "John! John" - quite the opposite to his behaviour before. One could argue that his true feelings come to the surface, but I can't help myself, I had the impression that they somehow made this scene in favour of all the Johnlock-shippers, you know, to feed them a bit. It somehow didn't feel very natural.
- John goes back to Baker Street (doesn't move in, of course) and follows Sherlock around like before; they investigate in the underground and we get this strange bomb-scene:
                 - Sherlock manipulates John by making him believe they are going to die soon to make John forgive him and open up towards him. I am very fine with that (not agreeing with his actions of course ;-)) but this sounds very much like Sherlock.
                  - Sherlock tells John the truth that he in fact CAN switch off the bomb and burst out
                    laughing. Not laughing like they laugh together or laughing happily because John forgave
                    him, no, he clearly laughed AT John and this is really a very strange thing to do in that
                    situation. Maybe even stranger for John that he still forgives him.

Any thoughts?

Last edited by Marva (January 2, 2014 1:19 pm)

tonnaree · January 2, 2014 1:23 pm

I never doubted it was BC in the torture scene because his body was looking the way it did in Little Favour.

Marva · January 2, 2014 1:25 pm

Swanpride wrote:
Sherlock's reaction to John being in danger totally fits both the show and canon (in which he once tells a criminal that he is very lucky that he didn't accidentally kill Watson). Just remember how shaken up he was at the pool.

that's right, but just before he thinks he can get over John without turning a hair. Maybe his emotions are just so "locked" deep inside, I don't know.

SusiGo · January 2, 2014 1:40 pm

What about the very beginning of the train scene when Sherlock tells John to leave? It reminded me of the pool scene, just the other way round. Did Sherlock want to test if John would stay with him?

gently69 · January 2, 2014 1:45 pm

SusiGo wrote:
Did Sherlock want to test if John would stay with him?

I don't think so. I (want to) believe that he was really worried about John's life and that he wanted him to be safe. Though he certainly knew that it was too late.

anjaH_alias · January 2, 2014 1:49 pm

I don´t know whether it was only a test. I believed yesterday night that he really wanted to make him run away. But was also happy that he stayed. Anyway, I have to watch that scene more often (what a sacrifice!), it was in the middle of the night both times because my live stream broke together during the "live" airing and I had to watch it then much later. I think it´s a key scene and deserves much observation, also according to the truth of emotions which are shown here.
And, btw., that Sherlock is laughing about John´s fear and pain is to me not more cruel than his Baskerville lab experiment. The only new thing is the laughter itself.

Mirthxx · January 2, 2014 1:52 pm

Hi Guys,

First time posting so if I do anything out of line, just let me know. Thanks.

I agree with everyone else here. I found the new Sherlock surprisingly open and a lot more smiley, which I put down to his time away. I am presuming that he realised what he had while he was away and was glad to have it back, and more accepting of his friends now, that he HAS friends that is.

He seems to be trying to 'allow' for thier humanity.

I presuming he would close down a little as the memory of being alone wore off. However, as you have all agreed, I found the train section distasteful. I find his humor cruel and can't believed John laughed. The brief chat in the hallway healed it a bit, but that train scene was down right cruel. For Sherlock to manipluate forgiveness is one thing, but to out and out laugh at him??

It seemed grossly out of character to be laughing that heartily and to be laughing at John that way, it's something Sherlock at his worse never did (I suspect from being on the other side of it himself so often). He laughs with John, but I've never known him laugh AT John, and never so often as he did in this episode. I found each time left a bitter taste in my mouth.

John deserved a lot, and got nothing excpet the word Sorry, without Sherlock ever seeming to realise why it needed to be said, even though he said it often enough.

I am hoping that the actors are 'finding' themselves after being out of their skins for so long and that everything will become familiar once again, although I do like the idea that Sherlock accepts he has friends this time, that I approve of.

Overall though, I loved it, I'm just so happy to have Sherlock back on my monitor that I was willing to overlook a lot of things, but I do hope next ep puts them right. Not long now.

Now I'm off to the 'something about Mary' thread because I soooo have some comments on that too.

*grin*

Mirth
xx

Sherlock Holmes · January 2, 2014 1:55 pm

Remember that the beginning part of the train scene was all quite genuine. Sherlock didn't know there was an off switch until he got down on his knees and looked inside it. Then he decided to use the extra time to manipulate John for a bit of fun.

I thought most of his reactions, dialogues and actions throughout the episode were perfectly in character, although he did do rather a lot of laughing. I really loved the scene in the restaurant. It's in keeping with the canon too, where Holmes returns in disguise, completely not realising the affect it would have on Watson.

I agree with SolarSystem who said earlier that somehow Sherlock has both regressed and advanced at the same time. It's quite strange, that aspect. Some of his interactions seem much more well developed. He was able to thank Molly like an actual normal human being!

I think he didn't really realise how much he needed John on his cases until he tried going on one with Molly. He missed their banter, he even missed John taking the piss out of him. He needs someone to ground him and pull him back down to earth, not kiss his arse all the time.

If that scene in Serbia was anything to go by, Sherlock has had a pretty rough time of it the last two years. Those kind of experiences would definitely affect and change a person on some level.

gently69 · January 2, 2014 2:01 pm

anjaH_alias wrote:
And, btw., that Sherlock is laughing about John´s fear and pain is to me not more cruel than his Baskerville lab experiment. The only new thing is the laughter itself.

But this time they were in real danger, at the beginnig at least. Baskerville was self-made. Only John's nerves could have been hurt then.

KeepersPrice · January 2, 2014 2:07 pm

anjaH_alias wrote:
I don´t know whether it was only a test. I believed yesterday night that he really wanted to make him run away. But was also happy that he stayed. Anyway, I have to watch that scene more often (what a sacrifice!), it was in the middle of the night both times because my live stream broke together during the "live" airing and I had to watch it then much later. I think it´s a key scene and deserves much observation, also according to the truth of emotions which are shown here.
And, btw., that Sherlock is laughing about John´s fear and pain is to me not more cruel than his Baskerville lab experiment. The only new thing is the laughter itself.

Glad you brought this up. I've been thinking about the Baskerville experiment all morning and about how what went on there was also a cold-hearted manipulation of John. And that was another Gatiss written episode, wasn't it? Hmmm...for some reason does Mark enjoy having Sherlock emotionally abuse and/or manipulate John? That really might be how he sees the character - uber manipulative. And I suppose we can justify it by saying that deep-down John likes the danger thrills and expects this kind of behaviour from Sherlock and just laughs it off in the end - showing us they are both quite disfunctional characters. If that's the case then - run for your life, Mary!

Well, I'm not going to make any final judgements until I see this again without all the buffering issues.

January 2, 2014 2:09 pm

Sherlock Holmes wrote:
I think he didn't really realise how much he needed John on his cases until he tried going on one with Molly. He missed their banter, he even missed John taking the piss out of him. He needs someone to ground him and pull him back down to earth, not kiss his arse all the time.

If that scene in Serbia was anything to go by, Sherlock has had a pretty rough time of it the last two years. Those kind of experiences would definitely affect and change a person on some level.

I think he is quite used to live a rough life anyway. Don't forget that he lived his life on his own untill he found John. He always struggles and is his very own enemy and critic all along. He can't forgive himself his own mistakes and shortcomings easily. It is easier for him to forgive others than to forgive himself.

Last edited by Be (January 2, 2014 2:11 pm)

anjaH_alias · January 2, 2014 2:14 pm

gently69 wrote:
anjaH_alias wrote:
And, btw., that Sherlock is laughing about John´s fear and pain is to me not more cruel than his Baskerville lab experiment. The only new thing is the laughter itself.
But this time they were in real danger, at the beginnig at least. Baskerville was self-made. Only John's nerves could have been hurt then.

Sherlock knew at the point of the laughter and even a bit before that they were out of danger. This mind palace scene e.g. looked very made up to me. Like pressing himself literally into a state of mind, not truely felt, little show for John. I have to watch that again, but that was my impression.

Marva · January 2, 2014 2:14 pm

anjaH_alias wrote:
gently69 wrote:
anjaH_alias wrote:
And, btw., that Sherlock is laughing about John´s fear and pain is to me not more cruel than his Baskerville lab experiment. The only new thing is the laughter itself.
But this time they were in real danger, at the beginnig at least. Baskerville was self-made. Only John's nerves could have been hurt then.
Sherlock knew at the point of the laughter and even a bit before that they were out of danger. This mind palace scene e.g. looked very made up to me. Like pressing himself literally into a state of mind, not truely felt, little show for John. I have to watch that again, but that was my impression.

then why did he think Molly could substitute John?

anjaH_alias · January 2, 2014 2:17 pm

Swanpride wrote:
The question is when he discovered the off-switch...if he really went to his mind palace, remembered that there might be one and only then, when he started to go over the bomb, found it, then the initial scene with him telling John to go was genuine...but the fact that we didn't see the mind palace and that he actually did inform the police despite claiming that he hadn't suggests that the whole thing was an act....

I have a headache...

Ta! The mind palace was quite a parody, or? These are excactly my questions.

anjaH_alias · January 2, 2014 2:18 pm

Marva wrote:
anjaH_alias wrote:
gently69 wrote:
But this time they were in real danger, at the beginnig at least. Baskerville was self-made. Only John's nerves could have been hurt then.
Sherlock knew at the point of the laughter and even a bit before that they were out of danger. This mind palace scene e.g. looked very made up to me. Like pressing himself literally into a state of mind, not truely felt, little show for John. I have to watch that again, but that was my impression.
then why did he think Molly could substitute John?

????

SilverMoonDragonB · January 2, 2014 2:20 pm

Mrs. Watson wrote:
Has it ever happened to you going through something really shocking/difficult and at the moment you just carry on but (sometimes much) later you feel the reaction?

I think that it's just when he comes back and John doesn't revive him with open arms that Sherlock realizes that he missed his best friend during the years he was away. He also realizes how important John is for him. But Sherlock being who he is, doesn't know how to deal with it. I see more of the usual Sherlock when he says to John he heard him at the graveyard and, at the same time, I think he has matured a bit.

I agree with this ^

I've said it in slightly more detail in the first reaction thread, so long story short, I like what they've done with Sherlock. He's still himself, yet different too, and the way he acts is both how I expected him to be (in some ways) and yet I was surprised as well, which to me is a good thing. I never like to be proven completely right

Last edited by SilverMoonDragonB (January 2, 2014 2:20 pm)

Marva · January 2, 2014 2:20 pm

anjaH_alias wrote:
Marva wrote:
anjaH_alias wrote:

Sherlock knew at the point of the laughter and even a bit before that they were out of danger. This mind palace scene e.g. looked very made up to me. Like pressing himself literally into a state of mind, not truely felt, little show for John. I have to watch that again, but that was my impression.
then why did he think Molly could substitute John?
????

he said to Mycroft that "John is not in the picture anymore" and took Molly to follow him to his cases.