nakahara wrote:

So Sherlock´s pining looks at John´s chair and John himself at his wedding, Sherlock´s lovely wedding speech where he confessed his feelings to John in more certain terms than he ever did when he spoke with Irene, Sherlock´s obvious jealousy at Major Sholto, Sherlock´s care about John´s attractiveness (he mocks his moustache thrice), his willingness to pull John out of the fire and to come from the dead for his sake - that all doesn´t count as the proof of love. But a slight dilation of pupils in a dark room is a definite proof of sexual attraction... 

Well, not in my eyes. For me, Sherlock´s actions clearly indicate John´s importance to him and his dedication to John. I fail to see anything that would signify the same depth of feelings of Sherlock to Irene. In my opinion, if Sherlock ever was attracted to Irene, that´s all that it was - a slight attraction. While the thing that connects him to John is a deep, selfless love.
 

But no one ever doubted the love and the commitment between John and Sherlock, all that is ever doubted in this thread is the physical attraction. And while all you mentioned above are clear proofs for their love, they are no proof for physical desires. No one ever says that what Irene and Sherlock shared was more deep or meaningful than what John and Sherlock share, on the contrary. Just that their relationship included much more elements of actual physical attraction than the men´s (We don´t have to discuss Irene´s display of attraction, she is quite aggressive about it, but even Sherlock gets quite unambiguously touchy with her when he grabs her wrist and whispers in her ear about how her body gave her away - for whatever reason, I don´t mean to say he loves her but it´s much more explicitly sensual than anything the men ever did. Drunk knee grabs, hugs at weddings and deep looks to shut someone up without using words are just not the same category in my books).

My final words on that matter are that it´s clear we have a charged situation between those two guys and their respective personalities. What happens between them is sexy to look at, no one will ever deny that (a whole wing in my mind-palace is named after them ^^). We just have to remain aware that what we make of it, our assumptions about their respective feelings can be biased by the feelings we would have in their situation. Of course there´s the possibility John´s bi and feels the same way towards Sherlock we would, or that John´s basically straight but still feels for Sherlock like we would just because he is so damn special. But there´s also the possibility that John is a human being with some aspects of his personality (namely his sexuality) not focussing on Sherlock, and his continued intimate relationships with women seem to suggest that. To assume someone from the outside knows better what´s going on in a person´s head and heart than themselves is dangerous ground, a ground I myself wish to stay away from. I´m happy to accept their relationship includes physical expressions of affection as soon as I´m unambiguously told or shown (and it goes without saying that I don´t mean it in the "but how are we supposed to know he´s gay if he doesn´t have hot sex on screen"-way. A kiss or them holding hands, heck even a smile and nod to a half-sentence from anyone about them being together now would be enough). But as long as I´m not I refrain from ascribing hidden motivations or even psychological assessments like "in denial" to a character that speaks his mind quite clearly and never makes the slightest distinct move in that direction.
 

Last edited by Zatoichi (September 15, 2014 8:43 am)

SusiGo wrote:

Just one thing, Liberty:

"Spanking and humiliation are often part of loving relationships."

I really cannot agree with that one.   

Zatoichi wrote:

Harriet wrote:

Zatoichi wrote:

I think what Liberty meant was within BDSM-context..
 

Still there is no need to agree with it

No, of course not, there is no obligation to agree with anything.. won´t make it less of a fact though.

There's no agreeing or disagreeing with people's sexual orientation.  It just is .   And it's fine. 

To be absolutely clear, yes, I did mean BDSM (thank you, Zatoichi) - it was in response to Nakahara's point about Irene, that she appeared to like spanking and humiliation, rather than a loving relationship.  Obviously, many people in loving relationships do have that kind of sex.  The desire doesn't go just because you fall in love.  If anything, it's intensified.  (I don't think Irene is looking for a loving relationship.   But I do think she falls for Sherlock, rather than just wanting to do things to him, and her sexual inclinations certainly don't stop that happening at all). 

I think it's clear that Irene's talking about consensual activity, because she's so reluctant to hit Sherlock to get the phone from him (she only does it because she has to).  I think the riding crop is more a metaphor than anything, because it's almost an iconic sexual "weapon", and because we're introduced to Sherlock using a riding crop himself.  Sherlock and Irene mirror each other a lot - clothes, hair, etc.  White sheet/white dress.  Naked/disguise (dog collar)removed.  Irene wearing Sherlock's coat.  Irene wearing Sherlock's dressing gown.  I do think there is supposed to be a connection between them.

I've got to ask, leaving aside who's attracted to whom, don't you feel a certain something when you watch the Sherlocked scene?  Don't you think Sherlock is particularly sexy there?  What about when he takes Irene's wrist and leans into the darkness? Or does it leave you cold?  I'm curious about this. I mean, I was floored by that episode - it's probably the one that really got me obsessed with Sherlock as a an object of desire.

Last edited by Liberty (September 15, 2014 10:39 am)

SusiGo wrote:

Yes, he is sexy here (as he is for example when making John get the phone out of his pocket or strutting around in his purple shirt, but this is just an aside). No, it does not leave me cold. There are indeed quite a lot of parallels between Sherlock and Irene - just think of the six months ultimatum mentioned here that is taken up again with regard to Sherlock himself in HLV. 
And yet - where does this leave us within the frame of the show? For me it is a deliberate play on sexual and intellectual attraction which is brilliantly done. For one episode, not more. It is no proof of Sherlock being heterosexual. Because in the fireplace scene where the whole setting is overly romantic John is on his mind. He refuses Irene's equation of having dinner and having sex. And when Irene makes her advance and covers his hand he turns his around for the sake of taking her pulse, turning a sexual gesture into something scientific. 
I do not deny that there is a lot of sexual innuendo between them but this is one episode out of nine so far. In all the others he shows no attraction to any woman whereas his relationship with John is a constant. 
And one last thing - we should not forget that it is the thought of John that calls him back to life in HLV although he thinks of his parents and Mrs Hudson and Irene as well. Irene simply does not have the same emotional power over him that has John. Nobody else has.

This exactly.
I agree, he is very sexy in the Sherlocked scene. And yes, the way he approaches Irene and is standing very close to her is sexy. But he's playing the game there, that's all this means to me. Without a doubt the two of them can look hot and sexy together, but that doesn't mean that Sherlock is in any way sexually attracted to her. He's attracted to her intellect and to the challenge she provides. 

 

Last edited by SolarSystem (September 15, 2014 10:25 am)

Thanks for your comments about the scene.   I wasn't claiming that because it's sexy for us, there's sexual attraction there (I too find him sexy in completely non-sexual scenes).  I was just struggling to see how that scene could not have an effect, and was curious.  So I see now that it does have an effect . 

Anyway, yes, it's just one episode.  He presents himself as possibly asexual in S1.  I could have gone along with that.  But ASIB shows something completely different - a decision to suppress desire, a mistrust of it and a view of it as a weakness.   And how is that information revealed?  Through a woman.   It almost doesn't make sense for him not to fall for Irene, because why else would his attitude to desire be an issue?  Why would we need to know? He doesn't care what other people do with their feelings.  It's his own feelings that he thinks he should repress.  He tells Irene that she's lost because she gave in to her feelings for him, but ends up thanking her for the final proof.  The proof that he's right to suppress his own feelings.  It doesn't make sense if he doesn't have those feelings and hasn't had to fight against them. 

So the only episode that really explores Sherlock's sexuality, explores it with a woman.  It doesn't mean he has to be straight, but still, the only person who raised those issues for him is female. 

When he takes Irene's pulse he's not planning to use that information against her, as part of the game.   (If he had been, he'd have guessed the phone code at that point, I think, or shortly after).  So he's taking it for his own purposes.   I think he realised earlier that he'd misread Molly and wanted to be sure with Irene - but the only reason for him wanting to be sure is that he cares whether she's attracted to him or not.   It just happens to turn out to be useful information later.   In that context, it's a little less clinical and a little more sexy.  And it makes sense for him to do that, because Irene is a manipulator.  She acts a part to get men to do what she wants.  Sherlock just checks that her desire is genuine.  He can't trust what she says, but he can trust her physical reactions. 

I do agree that Irene doesn't have the same emotional power.  But they have different places in his life.  Irene is the focus of the "sex" episode (or "love", as they call it, but I think that gets too confusing), the episode where he completely shuts John out.  John is constant and central throughout the series.

Last edited by Liberty (September 15, 2014 12:10 pm)

Liberty wrote:

I think it's clear that Irene's talking about consensual activity, because she's so reluctant to hit Sherlock to get the phone from him (she only does it because she has to).

 This does not seem very reluctant to me - she warned him once, then immediatelly beat him like a dog:



Reminds me of the other person who was "reluctant" to hurt Sherlock:

Liberty wrote:

I've got to ask, leaving aside who's attracted to whom, don't you feel a certain something when you watch the Sherlocked scene?  Don't you think Sherlock is particularly sexy there?  What about when he takes Irene's wrist and leans into the darkness? Or does it leave you cold?  I'm curious about this. I mean, I was floored by that episode - it's probably the one that really got me obsessed with Sherlock as a an object of desire.

Not only is Sherlock sexy as hell there, he deliberately flounts the raw power of his sexuality - his voice deepens and is rich like a cofee, he invades Irene´s personal space and seizes her by the arm, firmly but gently, whispers words to her ear to make her realise how dangerously close he really is... so no wonder that her heart starts beating like a bell in her chest. 

But does that mean Sherlock is sexually attracted to Irene? If we look at the bigger picture, we must realise that:

A. - He is retaliating for his humiliation at her hands - calling him a Virgin and ganging up with Moriarty against him made him see red and he is viciously avenging himself by revealing her secret desires publicly, thus humiliating her as well and then crushing her completely under his heel when he takes her camera-phone from her and opens it with the "Sherlocked" code.

B. - He is playing her. Such acting is not beneath him when he wants to reach some goals that are only reachible through women, as we could already see in numerous examples:





It also helps that he is really good actor, able to see people´s weak sides and exploiting them when he sees it fit.

C. - Just as he is not demonstrative with his wounds, Sherlock is not demonstrative with his feelings either. When he starts to project his emotions outwardly in a very obvious manner, we can be sure that he is just acting in 99 cases out from 100. (That´s exactly why I am not overly concerned about Sherlock´s apparent lack of physical desire around John - I think that´s normal for his character + he has yet not came out to John and is therefore careful around him, hiding the proofs of his desire out of sight).

That´s why Sherlock´s and Irene´s story is ultimately tragic - because we see incredible, bitter-sweet desire there irreversibly buried among ruins of betrayal and pride, without the slightest chance to ever be fullfilled. That´s why I love ASiB and I admire those scenes - I just doesn´t see this as a proof of Sherlock´s affinity towards women.
 

Liberty wrote:

I did say that Sherlock's dilated pupils might not be admissable evidence. .   It may have been an accident.  However, that scene is beautifully filmed, and it seems careless to have his pupils dilated at the very point when he says that dilated pupils signify arousal, unless we're meant to think that it's two-way.   There are better indicators that Sherlock is attracted to Irene, though.  I just particularly like that one . 

Irene´s pupils dilated when she was facing fire and her face fully bathed itself in the light of the flames. Sherlock´s pupils dilated when he came closer to Irene, bend to her and his face was suddenly hidden in the shadow. His reaction matches the normal physical reaction of the eyes being suddenly cast into the darkness - her reaction was not normal in those circumstances and thus revealed itself as a sign of her desire.
 

Well, like I said about the dilated pupils, it's just something I like rather than something I think of as proof.  I thought it was a mistake at first, but I'm not so sure as the scene seems to be so carefully filmed.  It would have been easy enough to change the lighting to show something different.  I don't think either of them are supposed to actually be aroused in the scene, however sexy it is, but it's nice to see that mirroring again (and the inadvertent confession that it implies).    There is much better evidence, particularly the speed of the deduction, but also the very fact that Irene persists in using sex with him, when she knows what men like.

And yes, he's acting in that scene, but trying to act as if he doesn't care when he desparately does.  Some of it's for Irene's benefit (winning the game), but I think it's mainly for Mycroft's.  He has to convince Mycroft he wants her sent to her death, when he's actually going to rescue her. 

In the riding crop scene, she really has to get that phone back because she'll die without it.  It's self-defence in advance.  She explains that to him, then when she drugs him she repeatedly asks for it and only hits him with the nearest handy implement when he won't give it up*.

That´s why Sherlock´s and Irene´s story is ultimately tragic - because we see incredible, bitter-sweet desire there irreversibly buried among ruins of betrayal and pride, without the slightest chance to ever be fullfilled. That´s why I love ASiB and I admire those scenes - I just doesn´t see this as a proof of Sherlock´s affinity towards women.

Very nicely put!  I agree, but I don't think it can be ignored that Irene is a woman.   If it had been a man, then I think we would be convinced that Sherlock was attracted to men, whether or not he was 100% gay. 

(*From Arianne De Vere:

IRENE: Give it to me. Now. Give it to me.
(Sherlock’s vision is going fuzzy. Grunting, he tries to get back to his feet.)
SHERLOCK: No.
IRENE: Give it to me.
(Starting to lose control of his muscles, Sherlock slumps to his hands and knees, still holding onto the phone.)
SHERLOCK: No.
IRENE: Oh, for goodness’ sake.
(She picks up her riding crop from the dressing table and wields it at him.)
IRENE: Drop it.)

I did not say he was desperately repressing anything, quite the contrary. The alcohol allows him to relax and express feelings he may have suppressed before. Although this applies even more to John who in a way seems to me far more repressed than Sherlock (especially where series 3 is concerned).

 

Last edited by SusiGo (September 15, 2014 2:40 pm)

@ SusiGo No, I was just extrapolating - if he's sexually repressed, and he's repressing desire for John, and the alcohol lowers his inhibitions, then you'd expect some idea of him making an effort to keep his desires under control ... but he seems quite relaxed.   (Yes, in some ways John is more repressed.  But I think it's a little different - Sherlock has made a conscious decision that to repress his sexuality - it's control that I might expect to see either slipping a little when drunk, or being more obviously and consciously repressed, if there was a real sexual attraction there).  It was a golden opportunity for something that crossed the line and made desire explicit, but it didn't happen.

And as I've said, I may well be proved wrong later in the series, or the writers might change direction .  But up until now - there's nothing obvious.

@Tonnaree Where you (and others) are seeing sexual desire, I see love and affection.  They do love each other, after all.

Last edited by Liberty (September 15, 2014 3:00 pm)

Liberty wrote:

@Tonnaree Where you (and others) are seeing sexual desire, I see love and affection.  They do love each other, after all.

And this is exactly what always upets me in this discussion - people forcing us Johnlockers in a certain corner - let me call it the sex corner. Strangely, most of the time it the non-Johnlockers bringing up sex and sexual desire (here on the board, not in general).
We do see love and affection between them. And we do not exclude a future relationship encompassing physical and emotional love and desire and thereby also sex. But the starting point - and I am speaking for all of us Johnlockers - is always love and affection. But of course it is much easier to refute our arguments by saying it is mainly about sex. 
 

Last edited by SusiGo (September 15, 2014 3:41 pm)