"I don't think Holmes is sexually attracted to Irene in the books, but BBC Sherlock does seem to be.   She could be a one-off, but she's the only sexual attraction we see. "

No matter how many times I watch ASiB I do not see SEXUAL attraction to Irene.  Intrigue, frustration, competiveness and even confusion.  But not sexual attraction.

In each scene where she is trying acting suductively towards him, Sherlock still seems to keep John in the center of his thoughts.    When he deduces the code on the phone the first thing he does is look at John for approval.  When they are sitting by the fire and Sherlock comes out of his mind palace the first thing he wants to know is where is John.

Some have used his "rescue" of her at the end of the episode as evidance of his love.  I see it as not wanting to waste someone fascinating in a world so full of idiots.
 

Last edited by tonnaree (September 13, 2014 9:55 pm)

besleybean wrote:

I'm prepared to accept that Sherlock wasn't really in love with Irene.
But that doesn't mean he's in love with John,or anybody else for that matter,.

I accept your opinion BB.  I just get frustrated when people use Irene as evidence of Sherlock's hetrosexuality or as proof that Johnlock will never be.  In my opinion it's neither.

Liberty wrote:

Funnily enough, I'm fine with ACD's Sherlock being gay.  I don't think it's explicit in the books, but it couldn't be in those days.  If he was meant to be gay, it would only be shown in little hints and subtext, so yes, I can easily believe that he is.  (And it gives a good reason for the bitterness of his feelings about love). 

What I think is different about the TV show is (1) it could be explicit, and isn't, and (2) Irene.  I don't think Holmes is sexually attracted to Irene in the books, but BBC Sherlock does seem to be.   She could be a one-off, but she's the only sexual attraction we see. 

We haven't seen a man approach Sherlock sexually, have we?  But he's fairly hands-off with everybody.  He's stiff (no pun intended!) when LeStrade and John hug him, despite probably liking it.  And he could be reserved with women (or men, in fact) because he's afraid of opening the floodgates.  Possibly.  I do like to think there are floodgates.  With water sometimes on the verge of breaking through. 

Well, in BBC Sherlock´s universe, at the very beginning of the story, two people who know Sherlock for years - Mrs. Hudson and Angelo - immediatelly think he and John are a pair when they appear together. Now why would they think this about their heterosexual acquaintance? Why would Mrs. Hudson still see them in such a romantic light in both TEH and TSOT, after so many reassurances from John that he isn´t gay? I can think only about one reason - Mrs. Hudson knows that Sherlock is gay.

Also, in ASiP, we are bombarded with references to gay relationship between SH + JW every third minute, or so:

Mrs. Hudson asks if they be needing two bedrooms.

Mrs. Huson tells them that her neighbour, Mrs. Turner, has two "married ones" as tenants. (But in Canon, Mrs. Hudson and Mrs. Turner were identical since ACD forgot Mrs. Hudson´s name in one or two short stories. That means that the reference to "married ones" concerns John and Sherlock.)

Mycroft asking John about the "happy announcement".

The whole scene at Angelo´s.

And many, many more.

Now, I am reluctant to believe that the authors decided to insert so much gay references into the story to ultimately persuade us about the character´s straightness. If they were aiming for some twisted "reverse psychology", they certainly didn´t persuade me.

Last edited by nakahara (September 13, 2014 10:24 pm)

tonnaree wrote:

 "I don't think Holmes is sexually attracted to Irene in the books, but BBC Sherlock does seem to be.   She could be a one-off, but she's the only sexual attraction we see. "

No matter how many times I watch ASiB I do not see SEXUAL attraction to Irene.  Intrigue, frustration, competiveness and even confusion.  But not sexual attraction.

In each scene where she is trying acting suductively towards him, Sherlock still seems to keep John in the center of his thoughts.    When he deduces the code on the phone the first thing he does is look at John for approval.  When they are sitting by the fire and Sherlock comes out of his mind palace the first thing he wants to know is where is John.

Some have used his "rescue" of her at the end of the episode as evidance of his love.  I see it as not wanting to waste someone fascinating in a world so full of idiots.
 

I don't think it's love (they've hardly spent any time together), but something more like the infatuation you get at the beginning of a relationship.  I did say quite a lot about it earlier in the thread, and don't want to repeat myself too much - but Irene sees the attraction (and she knows what men like), and so does Mycroft (even though he didn't expect it). 

In the deduction scene, Sherlock is super-fast because it's Irene (both Mycroft and Irene pick up on that and they seem to be right).  He glances at John, but locks eyes with Irene. 

I understand that not everybody sees it, and also that some of it may be the acting rather than the writing.  But it seems the most sexually charged episode of all, and I think if that's not sexual attraction, then nothing else that we see from Sherlock can be.  (Which may well be the case).  I don't see anything between Sherlock and John (or anyone else) that comes close. 

I'm not saying that Irene is proof of heterosexuality, just that she's the attraction we see him having.  I think he's still ambiguous, but I don't think ASIB can be ignored when talking about his sexuality.  (So much of it is about sex, sexual attraction, etc.).

@ Nakahara   There are loads of comments, I agree, but never anything to back it up.  It's natural to assume to men of their age living together are a gay couple.  And Mrs Hudson wouldn't have seen Sherlock having girlfriends, so might have already thought he was gay (and so might everybody else).  But by the end, honestly, I think she is being quite rude.  Despite not being a housekeeper, she's in and out of their house, so she can see that they have separate bedrooms, and that John has girlfriends. They barely touch, never mind kiss.  Even if Sherlock is gay and Mrs Hudson is certain of that, it's clear that he's not in a sexual relationship with John (unless it was an incredibly secret one, and if it was, it would still be rude of Mrs Hudson to mention it). 

Interesting that as a gay woman..Irenes attraction to Sherlock is plausable and sexual...and yet ..Johns is not...because he is straight?

As for Sherlock...he flat out said he wasn't attracted to Irene..
'why would I have dinner if I'm not hungry?'
She wasn't really offering food was she...and Sherlock isn't stupid.
He didn't trust her at all..thats why he took her pulse...

Sherlock enjoyed the battle of wits with Irene..much in the way he did and was infatuated... with Moriarty.
I think he saved her in the end..partly from respect of her talents and a good game well played ..and partly that she would proove useful In the battle that was about to be fought with Moriarty..

It was Moriarty after all..who told Irene how to play Sherlock..fluster him with sex.....only it didn't quite work did it..she ended up begging and flustered ..not Sherlock..

Lil, Irene's attraction has got to be plausible because we see it - it's how she loses the game.  (John's isn't so plausible because we don't see it).  (Actually, if there's any doubt, it's doubt over whether Irene is gay, rather than whether she's attracted to Sherlock.  She chooses to say she's gay, but she might have some agenda - I'm not sure what, but she's usually manipulating people, isn't she?  We don't see her definitely attracted to a woman, but do see her definitely attracted to Sherlock).

Sherlock taking Irene's pulse is very interesting.  Why does he want to know  if she's genuinely attracted to him or not?  To use against her?   It turns out that way in the end, but it clearly wasn't planned.   You can see the moment when Sherlock realises what that information about Irene means in terms of the game - it's when she says that Moriarty is her kind of man.  (Which I think reminds Sherlock that actually, he's her kind of man, and then he guesses the code).   But up until that point, it looks as if he didn't plan to use that information against her.  He collected it, because he wanted to know, for his own purposes.    Which suggests (I think) that he was attracted to her, and wanted to know if she was attracted to him, or acting.  

(Not that I think he would have acted on it.  He had already made a decision not to.  But it's interesting that he wanted to know).

If he didn't feel anything for Irene, then winning the game would be a victory: watch him in the Sherlocked scene.  He might be trying to appear smug, but he looks heartbroken.    He almost lost the game by falling for her, and she loses by falling for him (the final proof).  I think he's almost trying to convince himself as well with his little speech. 

I think it's an important part of his development.  He continues to repress his sexuality, but he does use his sex appeal later (with Janine).  It's similar to him learning to deal with fear and doubt in THOB.  He has to feel it to learn from it.   I think in ASIB he's definitely feeling it (whatever you think it is) and learning from it. 

I think he saves her because he couldn't bear to send somebody he cares about off to their death.  (So the coldness at the end of the Sherlocked scene is a show, for Mycroft, even though it convinces Irene too.   He plans to rescue her).   And he keeps her phone, her "heart".   Of course he feels something for her. 

Anyway, that episode completely convinced that he's not asexual at all, but repressed.  And making quite an effort to stay repressed.  I honestly don't think he's doing that around John all the time. 

Last edited by Liberty (September 14, 2014 8:01 am)

tonnaree wrote:

 "I don't think Holmes is sexually attracted to Irene in the books, but BBC Sherlock does seem to be.   She could be a one-off, but she's the only sexual attraction we see. "

No matter how many times I watch ASiB I do not see SEXUAL attraction to Irene.  Intrigue, frustration, competiveness and even confusion.  But not sexual attraction.

In each scene where she is trying acting suductively towards him, Sherlock still seems to keep John in the center of his thoughts.    When he deduces the code on the phone the first thing he does is look at John for approval.  When they are sitting by the fire and Sherlock comes out of his mind palace the first thing he wants to know is where is John.

Some have used his "rescue" of her at the end of the episode as evidance of his love.  I see it as not wanting to waste someone fascinating in a world so full of idiots.
 

Some thoughts on Irene, not to convince anybody or to speak against Johnlock/for Sherlock´s exclusive heterosexuality, just to explain where I see sexual attraction being a part of their game :

- When she enters the room naked he is visibly thrown off his game, quite like when Magnussen said "Redbeard" in HLV. So to me that indicates she has hit a weak spot. He regains control very quickly in both instances, but he isn´t cool like "nice try sister, but you chose the wrong man for your game". It took him some effort. It might just be the surprise of being confronted with a naked person, but the same happens later when she, clothed this time, flirts at him by saying she liked detective stories and detectives. He is lost for words and stutters, Sherlock Holmes, in a confrontational situation. His mind is clearly clouded by something, and as it never happens with fascinating male opponents challenging him or flirting with him I deduce that, however improbable it might seem, it is indeed her (quite aggressively displayed) female sexuality.
- He virtually floats towards 221b when he learned that Irene isn´t dead, so to me that is meant to show his brain is influenced by emotions. If she was nothing more but an interesting opponent it would be a strange reaction. (I know this is used as an argument for Johnlock, too, because he also heard that Irene calls them "a couple" in Battersea Station, so some argue he is emotionally affected because of that. But I see it as the continuation of the "danger night", him composing and barely eating and speaking after her supposed death.)
 

besleybean wrote:

It's an interesting one, actually...
I do wonder if the BBC team could ever have even dreamed of the imagination and creativityof the fan girl talents.
And I have been saying this since my 1st forum: I still believe somebody should write a paper on why so many fan girls want to see 2 hot guys getting it on!

And I still believe that this is not just about sex but about an exclusive love relationship between them. I have no idea why sex comes up again and again. We do not have to see anything explicit in screen to make that clear. One can read about that in fanfics. But for me the only guarantee for them together in 221B permanently is such a relationship, not a chain of one-night stands or failed attempts on John's side and sad looks on Sherlock's. 

Yes, eternal domestic bliss and exclusivity are surely one great appeal of Johnlock. Even I as a non-shipper find the thought of them growing old together much more comforting than John re-marrying and Sherlock retiring alone. 
But their saga is probably not laid out to be comforting..

Last edited by Zatoichi (September 14, 2014 10:57 am)

Good answer, Liberty. Just one little correction - I myself do not think that sex is not important in a relationship. But some people who do not ship Johnlock seem to reduce the Johnlockers' expectations to "you just want to see them having sex and it is not going to happen". I wanted to make a point against this attitude. 

As for the scenarios - I think the first one is the most probable. No on-screen sex but some display of emotion like a kiss, touch, whatever you want.