BBC Sherlock Fan Forum - Serving Sherlockians since February 2012 » Johnlock: The Official Debate

besleybean · October 5, 2013 1:40 pm

I know we're way OT here, but I think it's a positive bonding experience for us all, being able to share...well actualy it is slightly relevant to Johnlock, I suppose.
But what I was going to say is, this: it's like critics of our government have been saying over the 'bedroom tax'...people have very complicated marriages!

holmes23 · October 5, 2013 3:04 pm

Punch me in the face wrote:
On the other hand, Sherlock, as much as he'd probably hate to admit it, is very attached to John. I think that is the closest thing to love he has ever felt (that doesn't necesseraly imply sexual desire and all. Like I said before, I think John loves him to bits but as a friend, and I think Sherlock loves him "full stop", and I'd like to think that if ever he once felt like experiencing something else than platonic love, it could only be with John, but that's only how I see it).

Yes, this is what I feel as well, and thanks Punch me for the detailed analysis.

kittykat · October 8, 2013 9:33 am

besleybean wrote:
I agree too and thank you.
Only one problem with the latter part of your analysis.
In The Canon: John marries.

Right, because a man who marries a woman can't possibly be gay.

Two words: Brokeback Mountain

I'm not saying that John is gay, because he's probably not. But you can't rule out the possibility just because he marries a woman...

Last edited by kittykat (October 8, 2013 9:35 am)

SusiGo · October 8, 2013 10:58 am

Maybe telling conventional love stories is not ACD's strongest point or maybe it is just me but Watson's love story never really piqued my interest. I somehow get the feeling that he used Mary for storytellling purposes in this novel and afterwards did not really know what to make of her. IMO his main focus was always on Holmes and Watson and all other characters come only second. Just take Moriarty who is less present in the canon than in most adaptations.

besleybean · October 8, 2013 11:34 am

I completely agree with you.
But I think the focus is on the remarkable Holmes-Watson friendship.
Mary was used by ACD because he recognised his character would normally be married.
Holmes was already unusual in not being, so Watson had to be for balance.
It also provided an amusing side story of Watson having to get permission to abandon his wife, to go on jaunts with Holmes.
What ACD's motives were for marrying Watson off I don't know.
But whatever we feel about Holmes, there is no suggestion that Watson is gay.
Even if we thought The Canon was a disguised gay romp(which I don't.):
Are people really suggesting that both Mark and Steven are lying to us and did actually deliberately write either an 'open too interperetation', or in fact '2 repressed gay characters' script?
I would certainly think poorly of them if it was the latter, no need for it in 21st century England.

Last edited by besleybean (October 8, 2013 11:35 am)

SolarSystem · October 8, 2013 11:47 am

besleybean wrote:
Are people really suggesting that both Mark and Steven are lying to us and did actually deliberately write either an 'open too interperetation', or in fact '2 repressed gay characters' script?

I personally do not suggest this, and I totally accept when they say that they didn't.
But be that as it may, there a people out there (a lot of people, actually) who have certain feelings about Sherlock and John and who feel that there might be more than just a deep friendship. That doesn't mean that there really is more than deep friendship between them, but I would say that people don't get the impression out of nowhere. I felt Johnlock before I even knew there was a word for it in fandom or joined this forum or was familiar with the fandom. No influence whatsoever, I had just watched the episodes, nothing else.

That doesn't prove anything, I'm well aware of that. But the question remains: why do so many people get this same idea? Are they all stupid or crazy or excessively romantic? I find it quite fascinating that so many people sort of believe in Johnlock, even though it was never deliberatly written by Mark and Steven.

kittykat · October 8, 2013 11:55 am

Some of us ship Johnlock, some of us don't. I vote for peaceful co-existence

Punch me in the face · October 8, 2013 1:04 pm

SolarSystem wrote:
That doesn't prove anything, I'm well aware of that. But the question remains: why do so many people get this same idea? Are they all stupid or crazy or excessively romantic? I find it quite fascinating that so many people sort of believe in Johnlock, even though it was never deliberatly written by Mark and Steven.

Well, I get your point, but if I am perfectly honest about this, I'd say that I love slash so much that I see slash everywhere.

For example, why so many people (and that includes me... lol) ship Snape/Harry or Draco/Harry in Harry Potter when there isn't a single hint in the canon that could make us think that there is anything at all between them? I mean, Snape was in love with Harry's mother (ok, he could change sides and falls in love with her son who has the same eyes as her blablabla, but you have to admit it'd be a little awkward) and Draco, well, his obsession with Harry is a little weird, I'll grant you that, but even if we believed him gay, it is perfectly clear that Harry doesn't feel anything for him. And yet, if you type "Drarry" on google, you get thousands and thousands of fanfics, fanarts...

I think that when you really like slash, you tend to see it everywhere.

That said, some relationships can be so ambiguous (Sherlock/John, Dean/Castiel from Supernatural, Kirk/Spock...), with writers making little (or big!) allusions (Ok, the whole gay joke in Sherlock isn't a proof, but I think the comment made by Irene --the "look at us both"-- is serious, and I won't even mention SPN with all the obvious quotes like "Cas(tiel), last time someone looked at me like that, I got laid!" or "the other angel (Castiel), the one who is in love with you..." and so on. Though I think it's more for fanservice), and some looks, silences...etc are pretty intense.

Well, maybe it's just me, but I'm hetero and I've never ever looked at a girl (I'm talking about a very good friend of mine, not a complete stranger in the tube huh? ;) ) the way John and Sherlock sometimes look at each other. There really is something between them. And it's a good thing we can see whatever we want.

Anyway, like I said before, when my mother (who barely knows what slash is and had never heard of Johnlock before) watched Sherlock for the first time, she said it was an original take on their relationship and asked me from which episode they were going to date. I think that means something, coming from someone who couldn't care less about slash... That's what made me think "ok, this time, it's not just my too inventive and perverted mind"

Last edited by Punch me in the face (October 8, 2013 1:05 pm)

besleybean · October 8, 2013 1:49 pm

Let us categorically state first of all(before we get jumped on from a great height) there is absolutely nothing at all perverted about a gay relationship( and I know nobody here has ever suggested that).
I just don't think there is one or ever will be (correction I know)in BBC Sherlock.
OK,let's try something else: is it just Benedict and Martin's close real life relationship, shining through?
Case in point: Sherlock and Amanda in Blind Banker. I was one of those who detecred a spark between them, when I had no idea that was Olivia!
But, the other thing:yes Sherlock and John do look at each other lovingly.
They do love each other. But they are not in love or in a relationship.
Even if they were, why not make it obvious, why hide it?
No, I'm sorry, it's in the head of the fan girl, or anybody who thinks men can only look lovingly at each other if they want to get in each other's pants.
Irene was right: Sherlock did something special to both her and John. He made them love him.
Slash is great: in fan art/fic/vids.

Last edited by besleybean (October 8, 2013 1:51 pm)

tonnaree · October 8, 2013 1:53 pm

There is quite a lot of Eye Sex on Sherlock.

besleybean · October 8, 2013 1:59 pm

See I can only accept that between actual couples, people who are going to be couples, or people who want to be a couple.
I see it between John and Sarah
Greg and Molly...
Molly to Sherlock.
I also saw it between Sherlock and Amanda...which had me most confused!
Otherwise, what evidence is there for it indeed being' eye sex'?

Last edited by besleybean (October 8, 2013 2:01 pm)

SolarSystem · October 8, 2013 2:31 pm

besleybean wrote:
See I can only accept that between actual couples, people who are going to be couples, or people who want to be a couple.
I see it between John and Sarah
Greg and Molly...
Molly to Sherlock.
I also saw it between Sherlock and Amanda...which had me most confused!
Otherwise, what evidence is there for it indeed being' eye sex'?

Just so I don't get this wrong: You say that you are seeing 'eye sex' between John and Sarah, Greg and Molly, Molly to Sherlock, right? If so: what evidence is there for it indeed being 'eye sex'?

besleybean · October 8, 2013 2:42 pm

Because we know they do actually want to be couples or are couples!
Well apart from Sherlock and Amanda!
Greg gives the typical hot blooded male response to Molly.
We know Molly fancies Sherlock.
John and Sarah go out.

Punch me in the face · October 8, 2013 2:53 pm

Well, then I guess it's all very relative.

I can tell you that if I look at someone the way John looks at Sherlock (but above all the way Sherlock looks at John, I think his looks are even more intense), then it'd mean that I'm in love with them!

I think it all depends on how we are. i.e. I hate being touched (except during intimate sessions, mind you! ) and I am unable to say "I love you" (even to my late husband), so when I see for example female friends hugging each others, or telling each others "I love you" on facebook, it's really over my head because I can't imagine myself doing such a thing with a "friend" (female or male)

Now if you look at your friends the way John and Sherlock look at each other, then yeah, I understand you don't see anything behind this, but to me, it has a very different meaning...

besleybean · October 8, 2013 2:58 pm

No I don't look at most of my friends this way...
But I know there is nothing between John and Sherlock, other than love.
But it's not sexual.
They are not in love.
Incidentally, I would find it helpful if people could indicate which scenes they were talking about, so I could respond in turn.
Certain scenes I can think of I can explain because of John being worried sick about Sherlock.
Or Sherlock knowing what he's going to do to John...as in lie to him.

besleybean · October 8, 2013 3:24 pm

Irene got that right, tho!

kittykat · October 8, 2013 3:50 pm

It was Anthea, not Althea.

Mattlocked · October 8, 2013 4:03 pm

Punch me in the face wrote:
Well, then I guess it's all very relative.

I can tell you that if I look at someone the way John looks at Sherlock (but above all the way Sherlock looks at John, I think his looks are even more intense), then it'd mean that I'm in love with them!

I think it all depends on how we are. i.e. I hate being touched (except during intimate sessions, mind you! ) and I am unable to say "I love you" (even to my late husband), so when I see for example female friends hugging each others, or telling each others "I love you" on facebook, it's really over my head because I can't imagine myself doing such a thing with a "friend" (female or male)

Now if you look at your friends the way John and Sherlock look at each other, then yeah, I understand you don't see anything behind this, but to me, it has a very different meaning...

I think what you just pointed out is an appearance of "modern times", especially facebook. I'm not on facebook, but I know that people have a lot of "friends" there. But to me those are no real friends. Same with "I love you". Used a lot and kind of "worn out" these days, I think. To me it has a much deeper meaning, which I don't think it has the same to people using it on facebook (or twitter). To me there is a big space between "I like you" and "I love you."
The looks between John and Sherlock show a deeeep connection to me, some kind of love. No sexual one, though.

tonnaree · October 8, 2013 7:43 pm

besleybean wrote:
Let us categorically state first of all(before we get jumped on from a great height) there is absolutely nothing at all perverted about a gay relationship

I'd just like to state for the record that I am unequivically pro-perversion.

NotYourHousekeeperDear · October 8, 2013 7:43 pm

I am a great believer/lover of Johnlock but I have become more cynical since I have been in this forum. I think the writers deliberately set out to create some sort of bromance between the characters but perhaps didn't realise how successful they would be...
In a thread about SiB , someone noted how Sherlock's response to Irene was deliberately written to show that when it comes down to it, Sherlock is a heterosexual male who is befuddled by a sexy woman, and what a shame it was they did that. I have to say I agree. i think while in some ways the writers fan the flames of Johnlock (e.g. "The somone loves you" comment by Irene,) they also show their conservativism by backing away from a more revolutionary and brave modern interpretation of Holmes and Watson as two men who form a fully romantic bond. In my opinion this is a shame.

Last edited by NotYourHousekeeperDear (October 8, 2013 7:44 pm)