BBC Sherlock Fan Forum - Serving Sherlockians since February 2012 » Johnlock: The Official Debate

Liberty · July 27, 2014 9:55 pm

Side of Angels wrote:
Of course, there's also the possibility that they may in fact have no current plans to take the relationship beyond a bromace, but they could always change their minds as the stories develop. I've done some writing myself (not fanfic), and sometimes my characters take me in a completely different direction than I've originally planned.

This makes much more sense to me than them setting it up in the first place. There are quite long gaps between the series', and presumably gaps in the writing of it, so I can see scope for the writers to change their minds about the characters, to see them in a new way or just want to do something different with them after a break.

besleybean · July 27, 2014 10:03 pm

I honestly find this discussion odd.
Do people normally watch TV shows and expect 2 guy leads to end up in a relationship?
When one doesn't do realtionships and the other is married to a woman.

Side of Angels · July 28, 2014 2:44 am

Liberty wrote:
This makes much more sense to me than them setting it up in the first place. There are quite long gaps between the series', and presumably gaps in the writing of it, so I can see scope for the writers to change their minds about the characters, to see them in a new way or just want to do something different with them after a break.

Exactly. Writers have the perogative to change their minds about their characters, or to try out new ideas. That's one of the most fun things about writing!

besleybean wrote:
I honestly find this discussion odd.
Do people normally watch TV shows and expect 2 guy leads to end up in a relationship?
When one doesn't do realtionships and the other is married to a woman.

Speaking for myself, as a general rule, no, I don't expect two male leads from a show to end up in a romantic relationship. In fact, I rarely ship characters from TV shows or movies at all. However, there's something special about Sherlock and John and their relationship that makes me feel they'd make a great couple.

Regarding their current statuses, we know that Mary will likely be out of the picture eventually, leaving John no longer married to a woman. As far as Sherlock, he originally didn't do close friendships either, but that changed when John came into his life. Why couldn't he change as far as relationships as well?

Last edited by Side of Angels (July 28, 2014 2:53 am)

SusiGo · July 28, 2014 7:28 am

Now I read a bit about the film "Paul" and would not really compare it to "Sherlock". I am getting a bit tired of repeating myself again and again but:
I cannot for the life of me imagine Mark Gatiss using the notion of Sherlock and John as a couple as a cheap gay joke throughout nine episodes. This is against everything I have read by him, both in his novels and interviews.

SolarSystem · July 28, 2014 7:30 am

Liberty wrote:
This makes much more sense to me than them setting it up in the first place. There are quite long gaps between the series', and presumably gaps in the writing of it, so I can see scope for the writers to change their minds about the characters, to see them in a new way or just want to do something different with them after a break.

And in case of Mofftiss, it seems they also take into account what is going on in the fandom - even if they only joke about it, as can be seen in TEH.

SolarSystem · July 28, 2014 7:39 am

Side of Angels wrote:
besleybean wrote:
I honestly find this discussion odd.
Do people normally watch TV shows and expect 2 guy leads to end up in a relationship?
When one doesn't do realtionships and the other is married to a woman.
Speaking for myself, as a general rule, no, I don't expect two male leads from a show to end up in a romantic relationship. In fact, I rarely ship characters from TV shows or movies at all. However, there's something special about Sherlock and John and their relationship that makes me feel they'd make a great couple.

Regarding their current statuses, we know that Mary will likely be out of the picture eventually, leaving John no longer married to a woman. As far as Sherlock, he originally didn't do close friendships either, but that changed when John came into his life. Why couldn't he change as far as relationships as well?

Absolutely agree.
And I don't know what "people normally" do, but to make it clear: I didn't expect anything when I started to watch the show. I've never shipped anyone in my life, not even Kirk and Spock, although being a Trekkie.
But I know what I see. If others don't see it, fine. But I'm not making up what I see. I saw it even before I knew that people call it Johnlock - or that other people see it, too, for that matter.
And nobody forces anybody to engage in a discussion that is perceived as 'odd'. I find other things to be pretty odd, but that's a different story.

besleybean · July 28, 2014 7:39 am

It's possible you are onto somethign there...
Though so far they seem to have used the real(including fandom) world for fun or as plot device...
Not to define the very essence of a relationship and a series.

Mattlocked · July 28, 2014 8:24 am

besleybean wrote:
I honestly find this discussion odd.
Do people normally watch TV shows and expect 2 guy leads to end up in a relationship?
When one doesn't do realtionships and the other is married to a woman.

Well, in "ordinary" tv-shows one often can see from the beginning what will happen to the characters and how they will end up. But Sherlock isn't ordinary and that's exactly what I love so much about it. I didn't expect the old lady dying in TGG. I didn't expect Anderson founding a fan club. I didn't expect Mary shooting Sherlock.

I find this discussion quite exhausting. Nobody knows what's gonna happen, so we actually only can wait and see. It's only guessing, maybe hoping. But some of us seem to know the future scripts; it's a bit annoying to me.

A lovely light · July 28, 2014 8:47 am

LOL about Kirk and Spock (i coudn't see it either why that shipping exists).

Back to discussion: http://www.dailystar.co.uk/showbiz-tv/hot-tv/391254/Sherlock-fans-sidekick-Dr-Watson-gay-lovers .

Mattlocked · July 28, 2014 9:19 am

Oh, quite a nice picture there!

And this; I think I remember that one and I really had to laugh: The show’s shocked co-creator Mark Gatiss, 47, revealed: “Oh my God. I get sent things that would make your hair turn white. It’s not just Sherlock and Watson holding hands on a park bench, I can tell you that.

“Some of them are incredibly graphic but my goodness I’ve not tried half the things they’re doing.”

But yet I feel fanfiction and fantasies of all kind regarding Johnlock should not be sent to any of the cast and crew. If they want to have a look they will find it and if they want to go that way in the show, fine!
But until then some things just should stay between us, the fans, where they belong.

Last edited by Mattlocked (July 28, 2014 9:19 am)

SolarSystem · July 28, 2014 9:33 am

I agree, Mattlocked.
But this article illustrates once again the 'problem' with all Johnlock debates: Most non-Johnlockers seem to think that Johnlock only has to do with sex. But Johnlock means something else to every single Johnlocker. And things that I love to read about in fanfiction don't necessarily have to make it into the show for me.
I'm sure Mark knows that the graphic stuff that gets send to him is only one part of what fans think about when they think of Sherlock and John as a couple.

besleybean · July 28, 2014 9:52 am

That's if Mark doesn't think it's too much of a stretch to think of Sherlock and John as a couple at all.

SusiGo · July 28, 2014 10:02 am

besleybean wrote:
That's if Mark doesn't think it's too much of a stretch to think of Sherlock and John as a couple at all.

Knowing some of his writing I do not think it is.

As in his Lucifer Box novels in which he

has the readers believe the hero is a womaniser par excellence only to have him sleep halfway into the book with a male character (and quite a lot of others afterwards).

I know this is no adaptation but his original work but here he also draws strongly from various literary sources and does not shy away from surprising his readers in this way.

Last edited by SusiGo (July 28, 2014 10:33 am)

besleybean · July 28, 2014 10:40 am

Yes I have no doubt that Mark is fiine with various ideas, possibly it depends how precious he is about Sherlock and John.

tonnaree · July 28, 2014 11:57 am

SolarSystem wrote:
I agree, Mattlocked.
But this article illustrates once again the 'problem' with all Johnlock debates: Most non-Johnlockers seem to think that Johnlock only has to do with sex. But Johnlock means something else to every single Johnlocker. And things that I love to read about in fanfiction don't necessarily have to make it into the show for me.
I'm sure Mark knows that the graphic stuff that gets send to him is only one part of what fans think about when they think of Sherlock and John as a couple.

This exactly!
Don't get me wrong. You may have noticed I'm extremly pro-smut. However, in reading fan fics some of my favorte scenes are of the "domestic bliss" variety. Just imaging Sherlock and John sharing life.

And yes, I know they have shared a life on the show already. But there are different layers of emotion in sharing your life with your mate, rather than A Mate.

A lovely light · July 28, 2014 12:10 pm

As now the series are an international phenomenon, can it be that they are also changing some initial planes or are more cautious in what are they saying / doing and that BBC interfers more?
-------
I have my problems with the very explicit fanart, as they are free to be seen by any google research. I wish it would go in some password protected environments, to be honest (speaking here more as a mother of two underage kids).

Particulary bad was one Graham Nortons interview with Martin. Martin did it well, but i find it very cringeworthy what Graham did. I really hope it was late and the Martin children weren't watching - i don't know if they can dissociate what and where is their father and where is a representation of Watson.

SusiGo · July 29, 2014 7:15 am

I do not think so, quite the contrary. After all I haved read the BBC would not change the direction of a hit series just because it might offend viewers in other countries. They have explicitly said so in this paper which has also been discussed in a thread of its own.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/diversity/audiences/lgb-consultation.html

As for adapting and making changes to Canon here is a quote from an older interview with Mark:

It's the thing that's been said of Doyle's writing, though, is that he was far from perfect. He made mistakes in the way that he put some of the stories together.

Oh, yeah, yeah.

That's part of the liberating thing for you, too?

Well, you know that thing, that quote. William Gillette wrote the first stage play, and he cabled Doyle. And he wrote, "Can I marry Holmes?" Doyle replied, "You may marry him, or murder, or do what you like with him." And he was so blasé about his own creation, he's left lots of room for interpretation!

source: http://www.denofgeek.us/tv/sherlock/20560/mark-gatiss-interview-writing-sherlock-and-where-it’s-heading-next

besleybean · July 29, 2014 7:39 am

Again, I've never argued against the room for interpretation,.
Steven and Mark could do exacrly what they want.
What marks me from the Johnlockers is:
1. I accept what the team have said about their interpretiation,.
2. I don' t consider the team to be pathologiocal liars.
Acrually I'll add another:
3. I use the evidence we are given:If it walks like a heterosexual male, talks like a heterosexual male...and if it's shown not doing relationships....

A lovely light · July 29, 2014 8:18 am

How does a heterosexual male walk and talk in comparation with a homosexual one?

Normally i don't care what the producers, writers and actors say about an unfinished series (and if your name is Rowling i won't care what you say also at the end). They have to hold back loads of informations. But there is a lot of denying of a romantic relationship, so i won't hold my breath now for one....IMO it won't work to deny and deny and at the end to do exactly the opposite.

Last edited by A lovely light (July 29, 2014 8:35 am)

besleybean · July 29, 2014 8:21 am

He marries the female love of his life.