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July 19, 2014 8:01 pm  #1361


Re: Johnlock: The Official Debate

I agree with all of that, though they are getting better.
But I don't think thery are in love with each other.


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July 19, 2014 8:10 pm  #1362


Re: Johnlock: The Official Debate

Between straight men, Susi. The word "bromance" is to tell the world: "There is nothing wrong with these guys, they are not gay, you may calm down even if they hold hands."
Also, the message of bromance is: "These men are not just best friends as women are (how boring!), they are special."
In the bromance POV, straight men are superior. A homophobic and misogynist concept.


Eventually everyone will support Johnlock.   Independent OSAJ Affiliate

... but there may be some new players now. It’s okay. The East Wind takes us all in the end.
 

July 19, 2014 8:11 pm  #1363


Re: Johnlock: The Official Debate

Thanks for clarifying. I did not know about the full implications of the term. 

Last edited by SusiGo (July 19, 2014 8:12 pm)


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"To fake the death of one sibling may be regarded as a misfortune; to fake the death of both looks like carelessness." Oscar Wilde about Mycroft Holmes

"It is what it is says love." (Erich Fried)

“Enjoy the journey of life and not just the endgame. I’m also a great believer in treating others as you would like to be treated.” (Benedict Cumberbatch)



 
 

July 19, 2014 8:16 pm  #1364


Re: Johnlock: The Official Debate

John would probably use that term along with his "I'm not gay" statements.

Ouch, now I've made myself sad.


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I still believe that love conquers all!

     

"Quick, man, if you love me."
 

July 19, 2014 8:26 pm  #1365


Re: Johnlock: The Official Debate

Bromance is the entirely beautiful and natural love between 2 male friends who feel superior to nobody.
The name reflects how much love there is, more than general pals.
I guess it's nearest equivalent is besties.
Women sometimes refer to close female pals as girlfriends.;;;it's that kind of thing.

Last edited by besleybean (July 19, 2014 8:26 pm)


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July 19, 2014 8:38 pm  #1366


Re: Johnlock: The Official Debate

Disclaimer:  I haven't seen all of the BBC series or read all the ACD stories yet.  I haven't read all of this thread yet.  And I haven't made my mind up yet. 

I think John has some specific functions beyond being a love/friend interest for Sherlock.   Sherlock is such a unique, strange character that I think it is helpful to have John as a more human character.  It's almost as if John interprets Sherlock for us.  We experience John's shock, amazement, disappointment, etc.  The stories seem to work well with Sherlock having somebody to explain things to. He tells John instead of telling us (the audience/readers). 

There are moments when it's the other way around (for instance, when Sherlock realises that John has shot the taxi driver, in ASiP).  But usually, John is an open book, and Sherlock is often a closed one. 

Whether they are actually in a romantic, sexual relationship ... I think not.  All the jokes about them being a couple, I think really are jokes.  They wouldn't be funny if they were a couple.  I don't think John's irritation shows repressed homosexuality - it's natural to be irritated if people continually mistake you for something you're not (for instance, if people kept assuming you were a different nationality).  I don't think he's homophobic.   And I think he's portrayed as straight in the TV series (the books are possibly more ambiguous?  He does seem to fall for Mary, but there's rather a sweet, chaste feel about it).  If he was bi, then again, the jokes ("confirmed bachelor", etc.) wouldn't be so far off the mark, so wouldn't be so funny. 

Sherlock seems to be shown as asexual by choice and behaviour, rather than by orientation.   So there's room for him to be gay (although his feelings for Irene suggest that he's straight).  

In the TV series, a major hurdle for me is that Sherlock is shown as so devastatingly attractive, whereas John is just a goodlooking guy.    (2226 pages in the Benedict Cumberbatch picture thread on this forum, 104 pages in the Martin Freeman picture thread.  It seems to be the same all over the interweb ).  I know John has qualities that Sherlock loves, but I don't really buy them as a couple with such a disparity in attractiveness.   

Anyway, I do really like to see a romantic friendship.  If we're all seeing what we want to see, then that's what I want to see and what I'm seeing. 

 

July 19, 2014 8:43 pm  #1367


Re: Johnlock: The Official Debate

Liberty wrote:

All the jokes about them being a couple, I think really are jokes.  They wouldn't be funny if they were a couple.  I don't think John's irritation shows repressed homosexuality - it's natural to be irritated if people continually mistake you for something you're not (for instance, if people kept assuming you were a different nationality).  I don't think he's homophobic.

But making such jokes about being gay would be cheap and homophobic. This is not how the BBC works.


Eventually everyone will support Johnlock.   Independent OSAJ Affiliate

... but there may be some new players now. It’s okay. The East Wind takes us all in the end.
 

July 19, 2014 8:45 pm  #1368


Re: Johnlock: The Official Debate

Exactly. And of course they are not a romantic sexual relationship yet. Which does not mean that there is no room for development. 


------------------------------
"To fake the death of one sibling may be regarded as a misfortune; to fake the death of both looks like carelessness." Oscar Wilde about Mycroft Holmes

"It is what it is says love." (Erich Fried)

“Enjoy the journey of life and not just the endgame. I’m also a great believer in treating others as you would like to be treated.” (Benedict Cumberbatch)



 
 

July 19, 2014 8:48 pm  #1369


Re: Johnlock: The Official Debate

Tho it sadly reflects British humour very well.
This is what guys in pubs are like with each other all the time: you pouffe etc..
Even John jokes about it in Blind Banker: telling Sherlock he hoped he wasn't suggesting a date.
If they wanted to show them as a gay couple they would, not joke about it.


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http://professorfangirl.tumblr.com/post/105838327464/heres-an-outtake-of-mark-gatiss-on-the
 

July 19, 2014 8:52 pm  #1370


Re: Johnlock: The Official Debate

Well, today I read an interesting thing: Someone was complaining about people demanding that in a same-sex relationship everything has to be made clear from the beginning. That there is no room for obstacles, pining, misunderstandings, complications, all those tropes we know from straight romances. Quite a good point, I think. This is what most straight romances are made of, some comic, some dramatic or even tragic. So why not one between two men?


------------------------------
"To fake the death of one sibling may be regarded as a misfortune; to fake the death of both looks like carelessness." Oscar Wilde about Mycroft Holmes

"It is what it is says love." (Erich Fried)

“Enjoy the journey of life and not just the endgame. I’m also a great believer in treating others as you would like to be treated.” (Benedict Cumberbatch)



 
 

July 19, 2014 8:54 pm  #1371


Re: Johnlock: The Official Debate

The show is not a romance.


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http://professorfangirl.tumblr.com/post/105838327464/heres-an-outtake-of-mark-gatiss-on-the
 

July 19, 2014 8:58 pm  #1372


Re: Johnlock: The Official Debate

It is a love story. You said so yourself. And of course you may exchange the word "romance" for "love story" in my post. 


------------------------------
"To fake the death of one sibling may be regarded as a misfortune; to fake the death of both looks like carelessness." Oscar Wilde about Mycroft Holmes

"It is what it is says love." (Erich Fried)

“Enjoy the journey of life and not just the endgame. I’m also a great believer in treating others as you would like to be treated.” (Benedict Cumberbatch)



 
 

July 19, 2014 8:59 pm  #1373


Re: Johnlock: The Official Debate

From your point of view, bromance for me, of course.!


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http://professorfangirl.tumblr.com/post/105838327464/heres-an-outtake-of-mark-gatiss-on-the
 

July 19, 2014 8:59 pm  #1374


Re: Johnlock: The Official Debate

Liberty,
I really like how open minded you are. About your post, I have felt that way too- before I watched S3. That really changed the way I felt about Johnlock being intended or not. I am SO interested in hearing what you'll say about it once you have watched it too.

Please hurry.


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I still believe that love conquers all!

     

"Quick, man, if you love me."
 

July 19, 2014 9:00 pm  #1375


Re: Johnlock: The Official Debate

besleybean wrote:

Tho it sadly reflects British humour very well.
This is what guys in pubs are like with each other all the time: you pouffe etc..

And this is why I would want you to protest whenever they say it is a joke.
 


Eventually everyone will support Johnlock.   Independent OSAJ Affiliate

... but there may be some new players now. It’s okay. The East Wind takes us all in the end.
 

July 19, 2014 9:02 pm  #1376


Re: Johnlock: The Official Debate

For some reason, all of sudden I can't wait for S4 to be aired.


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I still believe that love conquers all!

     

"Quick, man, if you love me."
 

July 19, 2014 9:03 pm  #1377


Re: Johnlock: The Official Debate

Well I don't frequent pubs myself, just what I've been told!
But yes obviously, I counter homophobia whereve I see it, as well as countering other forms of bigotry and any form of ignorance.


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http://professorfangirl.tumblr.com/post/105838327464/heres-an-outtake-of-mark-gatiss-on-the
 

July 19, 2014 9:17 pm  #1378


Re: Johnlock: The Official Debate

As would mine.
If they were shown in a relationship, I would accept them as a couple.
But they clearly aren't


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http://professorfangirl.tumblr.com/post/105838327464/heres-an-outtake-of-mark-gatiss-on-the
 

July 19, 2014 9:57 pm  #1379


Re: Johnlock: The Official Debate

Harriet wrote:

Liberty wrote:

All the jokes about them being a couple, I think really are jokes.  They wouldn't be funny if they were a couple.  I don't think John's irritation shows repressed homosexuality - it's natural to be irritated if people continually mistake you for something you're not (for instance, if people kept assuming you were a different nationality).  I don't think he's homophobic.

But making such jokes about being gay would be cheap and homophobic. This is not how the BBC works.

I think the BBC could show homophobia without being homophobic itself.   I don't think that the characters are actually being homophobic when they assume John is gay (well, not all the time, anyway.  I don't think Mrs Hudson is, or the landlords in Hound, but I do think there's a trace of homophobia in the paper calling him a confirmed bachelor.  It's harking back to a more homophobic time).

The feeling I get from the jokes is that the writers are acknowledging that Sherlock and John are such an obviously slashable couple (honestly, one of my first thoughts about the series was that there had to be a ton of fanfiction with those two together).  I do find that kind of funny.  But I agree that it's possible to see it as homophobic (especially if they actually are a couple).  I do think they overplay it a little bit. 

 

July 19, 2014 10:12 pm  #1380


Re: Johnlock: The Official Debate

Schmiezi wrote:

Liberty,
I really like how open minded you are. About your post, I have felt that way too- before I watched S3. That really changed the way I felt about Johnlock being intended or not. I am SO interested in hearing what you'll say about it once you have watched it too.

Please hurry.

I almost succumbed tonight, but no ... .  I am prepared to have my thoughts in disarray when I finally watch it, and I'm sure I'll be posting here about it! 

I do think they have a special relationship.  But ... in the books, obviously they couldn't be written as lovers in that time and place.   That means that they might have been lovers ... but it couldn't be shown. 

On TV, in this time and place, of course they could be shown as lovers, so it feels to me as if a decision has been made to not show them that way ... initially at least (not counting series 3, obviously!).

 

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