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September 30, 2013 8:50 pm  #81


Re: Johnlock: The Official Debate

besleybean wrote:

Sexulaity aside.
It is made clear there is no relationship or interest between Sherlock and John.

 
I would call it a relationship although it's not romantic or sexual. You say Sherlock has nobody, but that's not true. Sherlock has John.
But then that's probably just me.


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He’s got a dog. We go to the pub on weekends. I’ve met his mum and dad …
http://s7.directupload.net/images/140302/9ovmk4uv.jpg
… and his friends and all his family and I’ve no idea why I’m telling you this.
 

September 30, 2013 8:50 pm  #82


Re: Johnlock: The Official Debate

Why do we have to be so serious and start rolling eyes? I'd like this discussion really to be a bit lighter. I think Martin gives an excellent example of how to do that. http://cdn.boardhost.com/emoticons/happy.png


------------------------------
"To fake the death of one sibling may be regarded as a misfortune; to fake the death of both looks like carelessness." Oscar Wilde about Mycroft Holmes

"It is what it is says love." (Erich Fried)

“Enjoy the journey of life and not just the endgame. I’m also a great believer in treating others as you would like to be treated.” (Benedict Cumberbatch)

http://up.picr.de/28609194so.png

 
 

September 30, 2013 8:52 pm  #83


Re: Johnlock: The Official Debate

As a close friend, yes.
@NYHD, please read Ian Hallard's piece.(Sigh)...you'll be waiting a long time.


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http://professorfangirl.tumblr.com/post/105838327464/heres-an-outtake-of-mark-gatiss-on-the
 

September 30, 2013 9:00 pm  #84


Re: Johnlock: The Official Debate

SusiGo wrote:

Why do we have to be so serious and start rolling eyes? I'd like this discussion really to be a bit lighter. I think Martin gives an excellent example of how to do that. http://cdn.boardhost.com/emoticons/happy.png

I love how they make the jokes in the show...to me, that's funny.  They put them in intentionally precarious situations to help lighten the mood.  I like that the writers aren't afraid to play around with it, no matter what the fandom says.

Last edited by sj4iy (September 30, 2013 9:04 pm)


__________________________________________________________________Bigby: Will you shut up?
Colin: Well, maybe if my throat wasn’t so parched, I wouldn’t have to keep talking.
Bigby: Wait, that doesn’t make se-
Coline: Just give me a drink, please.
 

September 30, 2013 9:02 pm  #85


Re: Johnlock: The Official Debate

besleybean wrote:

Just don't try and tell Mark and Steven what they wrote, or the actors what they played!

And who in this forum is doing that? I'm not telling them what they wrote or acted, but yes, I interpret. That's what happens when you write a book or make a movie or a tv show: people read it or watch it, they think about it, they interpret it. That's art. And yes, you can misinterpret. But is this thread ultimately going to be about who's right and who's wrong? http://cdn.boardhost.com/emoticons/errr.png


___________________________________________________
"Am I the current King of England?

"I see no shame in having an unhealthy obsession with something." - David Tennant
"We did observe." - David Tennant in "Richard II"

 
 

September 30, 2013 9:08 pm  #86


Re: Johnlock: The Official Debate

IMO it is not. For me it is - or should be - a friendly and relaxed discussion about different interpretations. But this seems to be difficult. http://cdn.boardhost.com/emoticons/wink.png


------------------------------
"To fake the death of one sibling may be regarded as a misfortune; to fake the death of both looks like carelessness." Oscar Wilde about Mycroft Holmes

"It is what it is says love." (Erich Fried)

“Enjoy the journey of life and not just the endgame. I’m also a great believer in treating others as you would like to be treated.” (Benedict Cumberbatch)

http://up.picr.de/28609194so.png

 
 

September 30, 2013 9:15 pm  #87


Re: Johnlock: The Official Debate

Yes, so it would seem. http://cdn.boardhost.com/emoticons/depressed.png


___________________________________________________
"Am I the current King of England?

"I see no shame in having an unhealthy obsession with something." - David Tennant
"We did observe." - David Tennant in "Richard II"

 
 

September 30, 2013 9:21 pm  #88


Re: Johnlock: The Official Debate

I guess it depends on what this thread is trying to achieve:

Are we debating whether or not the characters are actually gay?  Or are we just picking out things we find funny about the writing in various sources (books, movies, shows).


__________________________________________________________________Bigby: Will you shut up?
Colin: Well, maybe if my throat wasn’t so parched, I wouldn’t have to keep talking.
Bigby: Wait, that doesn’t make se-
Coline: Just give me a drink, please.
 

September 30, 2013 11:38 pm  #89


Re: Johnlock: The Official Debate

I loved the Bromance with the RDJ and Jude Law Sherlock and Watson, I love the Johnlock Bromance with Benedict Cumberbatch and Martin Freeman.  I enjoy well written slash fan fiction and well made slash videos.  It's all in good fun.  As far as the canon, the movie and the BBC show goes, I think they are two men who share a very strong, platonice friendship.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Once you eliminate the impossible, whatever remains, no matter how improbable, must be the truth."
Whoa.  Sherlock was quoting Spock who was quoting Sherlock....Mind blown!!

http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b104/josabby/MinionSherlockJohn.jpg
 

October 1, 2013 6:31 am  #90


Re: Johnlock: The Official Debate

sj4iy wrote:

I guess it depends on what this thread is trying to achieve:

Are we debating whether or not the characters are actually gay?  Or are we just picking out things we find funny about the writing in various sources (books, movies, shows).

IMO neither the one nor the other. For one thing I am interested in why so many people see/want/imagine them as a couple. What hints there are. What things are taken as hints. How people interpret the same dialogue/acting in a totally different way. What the intentions of the creators are. 
And it is not just about being funny. The end of the wedding scene in "A Game of Shadows" is not funny. Or when Holmes says he'll die alone while John leads a married life. And I am sure the same goes for "Sherlock" as well. 
 


------------------------------
"To fake the death of one sibling may be regarded as a misfortune; to fake the death of both looks like carelessness." Oscar Wilde about Mycroft Holmes

"It is what it is says love." (Erich Fried)

“Enjoy the journey of life and not just the endgame. I’m also a great believer in treating others as you would like to be treated.” (Benedict Cumberbatch)

http://up.picr.de/28609194so.png

 
 

October 1, 2013 8:24 am  #91


Re: Johnlock: The Official Debate

All agree, Susi, both options are not too interesting and don't really help to understand the Johnlock phenomenon.


Eventually everyone will support Johnlock.   Independent OSAJ Affiliate

... but there may be some new players now. It’s okay. The East Wind takes us all in the end.
 

October 1, 2013 9:00 am  #92


Re: Johnlock: The Official Debate

Holmes is most certainly a tragic hero indeed.


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"The world is big enough for us, no ghosts need apply"

 
 

October 1, 2013 12:51 pm  #93


Re: Johnlock: The Official Debate

I don't find Holmes to be a tragic figure.  There are tragic elements, of course...but he is a man of the mind, and his pleasure derives from keeping his mind engaged.  Drugs are only something he uses to occupy his time between cases...not because he is dependent upon them, but because he simply wants a way of passing the time.  He is incapable of being bored- that would be worse than the drugs.


__________________________________________________________________Bigby: Will you shut up?
Colin: Well, maybe if my throat wasn’t so parched, I wouldn’t have to keep talking.
Bigby: Wait, that doesn’t make se-
Coline: Just give me a drink, please.
 

October 1, 2013 1:46 pm  #94


Re: Johnlock: The Official Debate

Of course, but he has a tragic side to him. He clearly depends on Watson to be his companion and to give his life structure. When Watson hasn't been around for a while and he returns to Bakerstreet, he often finds out that Holmes has barely eaten, and that the rooms are a big mess. Without Watson, there is a pretty big chance that Holmes would have died before his time.


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"The world is big enough for us, no ghosts need apply"

 
 

October 1, 2013 1:57 pm  #95


Re: Johnlock: The Official Debate

Jacco111 wrote:

Of course, but he has a tragic side to him. He clearly depends on Watson to be his companion and to give his life structure. When Watson hasn't been around for a while and he returns to Bakerstreet, he often finds out that Holmes has barely eaten, and that the rooms are a big mess. Without Watson, there is a pretty big chance that Holmes would have died before his time.

But Holmes lived like that for years without Watson.  Holmes disappeared for years after his "death"...he's not dependent upon Watson to survive.  Watson is helpful and clearly makes Holmes' life more enjoyable...but Holmes wouldn't die without him.


__________________________________________________________________Bigby: Will you shut up?
Colin: Well, maybe if my throat wasn’t so parched, I wouldn’t have to keep talking.
Bigby: Wait, that doesn’t make se-
Coline: Just give me a drink, please.
 

October 1, 2013 2:12 pm  #96


Re: Johnlock: The Official Debate

Swanpride wrote:

The canon scene in The Sign of the Four is even more depressing...there Watson says that everyone won at the end of the case, he got the girl, the police got the credit, but what is left for Sherlock? And Sherlock answers that he still has the drugs...

That's what I had in mind too. And the way he says something like he doesn't want to congratulate Watson.

I am a huge Johnlocker, so obviously, I see signs everywhere and even where others don't see anything at all. That's how I am. Been a fan of slash for years and can't help it when watching a show/reading a book... My slash radar is always on.

Sometimes I know what I "see" is pure fantasy (ie. in Harry Potter, I like Draco/Harry or Snape/harry) because there aren't any hints at all in the canon, it's just my imagination and what I would like to see.

Other times, I think the writers/directors... etc give the ammunition us "slashers" need. I think of Sherlock/John BBC or for those who know this show, Dean/Castiel in Supernatural. As far as Sherlock is concerned, I'm with Susi and Solar there. I mean, if they didn't want a part of the fandom to fantasize about a possible romantic relationship between Sherlock and John, they could have easily avoided all the gay jokes. One or two is funny, but Mycroft, Mrs Hudson, the guys in Baskerville, Irene... If everyone in their entourage think there is something between them, then maybe that's because there is something. I'm not saying they're gay, I'm just saying that their relation is a very unusual and unique one, which can lead people to think there are more than friendship. Same go with certain looks they exchange.

(ie. I had a best friend, still have, long story... anyway, for years, people thought there was something between us when none of us had ever thought of our relation this way and I was a huge believer in male/female strong friendship. Until we had an affair...)

When my mother (who is not at all a slash fan or anything and couldn't care less about this, but has nothing against homosexuality) first watched BBC Sherlock, I hadn't said a word about the Johnlock phenomenom and yet after 2 episodes, she said "But they're gonna end up together, aren't they? In which episode?" and she was surprised when I said that it would never happen. She said it seemed so obvious that there was something between them. And that's when I thought "Good. If people who couldn't care less about slash see slash in this show, then that means my mind isn't completely slash perverted!" lol.
 
If I take Sherlock in a general way (canon, BBC...) and tend to be as honest as possible, I'd tell you the way I see them (of course, I'd like to believe they're in love, but I am conscious this is a fantasy): I think John is heterosexual but has deep affection mixed with limitless admiration for Sherlock, but I think that Sherlock needs John much more than John needs him, and I think John is the closest thing to love that Sherlock would ever feel, even though he may be not aware of this himself. And in the canon, without speaking of homosexuality, I feel like Sherlock is kinda addicted to John, and when John gets married, Sherlock gets back to his previous addiction, drugs (end of Sign of four)

But maybe that's just me...


************************
Just like old times...


http://i.imgur.com/lEZJjZh.jpg?1
 
 

October 1, 2013 2:30 pm  #97


Re: Johnlock: The Official Debate

Punch me in the face wrote:

Other times, I think the writers/directors... etc give the ammunition us "slashers" need. I think of Sherlock/John BBC or for those who know this show, Dean/Castiel in Supernatural. As far as Sherlock is concerned, I'm with Susi and Solar there. I mean, if they didn't want a part of the fandom to fantasize about a possible romantic relationship between Sherlock and John, they could have easily avoided all the gay jokes. One or two is funny, but Mycroft, Mrs Hudson, the guys in Baskerville, Irene... If everyone in their entourage think there is something between them, then maybe that's because there is something. I'm not saying they're gay, I'm just saying that their relation is a very unusual and unique one, which can lead people to think there are more than friendship. Same go with certain looks they exchange.

It's not that the writers don't want fans thinking anything illicit is going on (on the contrary, Moffat has said that everyone should be able to come up with their own fantasies because he did the same thing)...it's that some people get upset about it when they say "Well, the characters aren't gay".  The writers didn't write gay characters...they don't care if you want to make it that way in your fictions, but some people expect that fiction to play out on the screen.  As always, it's the people who go too far with something that causes problems for the rest.
 


__________________________________________________________________Bigby: Will you shut up?
Colin: Well, maybe if my throat wasn’t so parched, I wouldn’t have to keep talking.
Bigby: Wait, that doesn’t make se-
Coline: Just give me a drink, please.
 

October 1, 2013 3:21 pm  #98


Re: Johnlock: The Official Debate

"How can it be wrong to assume that something is going on when all involved people in the series (Mrs. Hudson, Irene, Mycroft e.g.) do remarks about a relationship between Sherlock and John" ? Because I read that (or at least something similar) several times in different posts, I have to ask now: And what´s about Molly? She never assumed that Sherlock and John are a couple. She´s in love with Sherlock (not really successful as we know ). And since TRF we know that she is extrem sensitive. Could be an argument against the other argument. . And Lestrade? Whatever...
My personal view on the jokes in the series about a sexual relationship between John and Sherlock (and I as a hetero share that with my best friend, a lesbian, with whom I watched that show together): I never had the idea that both could end up in a relationship. I never felt a sexual tension between them although I find that series extremly sexy . I see a strong and unusual friendship and nothing more. This is from my side not meant better or worse in comparison with Johnlock shippers. It´s just for the discussion. As a former theatre maker I know that people interpret in different ways and that´s fine.
For me the jokes were made on the one hand - which was said already here several times in that thread - to show the utter astonishment/helplessnes/prejudices of people who can´t classify a friendship like that or a friend of Sherlock. On the other hand it´s a stylistic device, a funny leitmotiv woven through the entire series. Cleverly made also as a nod to literature interpreters/scientists, who - especially in the sixties and seventies -, wrote huge essays about the homosexuality in ACDs (and so many others) canon. Later literary studies came back to a less subjective way of interpreting books, focus on: "Look, what is really in the text, don´t guess wild" - the mantra for every prospective philologist in my study time . This mantra, just btw, was of course not made for fans but for literature students.
When I saw Sherlock for the first times I had always these "subjective sixties and seventies" in my mind, when a joke about a possible gay relationship of them appeared during the series. I am convinced that Moffat/Gatiss know these essays and discussions. They´ve read nearly everything about ACD, they can´t have missed out these. And so I interpreted the respecting jokes also as a nod towards these.
From Johnlock I heard the first time here in that forum. With surprise, I never felt that, not my cup of tea. But it´s also a quality point for Sherlock that it opens different worlds and also is open for different worlds. 

Last edited by anjaH_alias (October 1, 2013 3:25 pm)

 

October 1, 2013 4:24 pm  #99


Re: Johnlock: The Official Debate

sj4iy wrote:

Jacco111 wrote:

Of course, but he has a tragic side to him. He clearly depends on Watson to be his companion and to give his life structure. When Watson hasn't been around for a while and he returns to Bakerstreet, he often finds out that Holmes has barely eaten, and that the rooms are a big mess. Without Watson, there is a pretty big chance that Holmes would have died before his time.

But Holmes lived like that for years without Watson.  Holmes disappeared for years after his "death"...he's not dependent upon Watson to survive.  Watson is helpful and clearly makes Holmes' life more enjoyable...but Holmes wouldn't die without him.

Remember that Holmes was busy during his hiatus, and probably didn't have those incredibly depressed moods during which he complained that 'the London criminal is certainly a dull fellow'.


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"The world is big enough for us, no ghosts need apply"

 
 

October 1, 2013 4:40 pm  #100


Re: Johnlock: The Official Debate

anjaH_alias wrote:

"How can it be wrong to assume that something is going on when all involved people in the series (Mrs. Hudson, Irene, Mycroft e.g.) do remarks about a relationship between Sherlock and John" ? Because I read that (or at least something similar) several times in different posts, I have to ask now: And what´s about Molly? She never assumed that Sherlock and John are a couple. She´s in love with Sherlock (not really successful as we know ). And since TRF we know that she is extrem sensitive. Could be an argument against the other argument.

Yes, but really, what about Molly? In TRF she does make a remark about Sherlock and John. Granted, she doesn't explicitly say they're gay, but she acknowledges that they do have a very special relationship. And she basically says that John counts for Sherlock, but she herself doesn't count. So I'm not so sure if the way in which she sees John and Sherlock is so different from the way Mrs. Hudson or Mycroft see them.

Then again, she is in love with Sherlock. The question is: would she even want to see what's really going on between Sherlock and John - if indeed there is something going on between them?


 


___________________________________________________
"Am I the current King of England?

"I see no shame in having an unhealthy obsession with something." - David Tennant
"We did observe." - David Tennant in "Richard II"

 
 

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