BBC Sherlock Fan Forum - Serving Sherlockians since February 2012 » Johnlock: The Official Debate

besleybean · May 28, 2017 10:00 am

Ok, I'm not positive why Sherlock followed John...
But he was glad Irene was alive!
So he wrote the tune when he thought Irene was dead?
Again, I say so what?
For me it still represents his romantic feelings towards her.
Everyone on here is always citing tropes.
Well, as I said it's a trope I recognise: that tune is Irene.
Eurus is wanting to see Sherlock's heart and that is what he shows her-Irene.

Liberty · May 28, 2017 10:21 am

ewige wrote:
In hindsight, the texting, the camera phone on the mantel... it's all too convenient for Irene to be in mortal danger shortly after, but again I prefer to interpret the shown evidence as Sherlock being fooled together with the viewers.
Him knowing she wasn't dead after the mortuary would add to the detective show but chip away from a show about the detective.

I think it's the other way round - him knowing she wasn't dead and misidentifying the body tells us more about his heart.

But also, there was no reason for that scene to be there really, other than for Sherlock to deliberately misidentify the body (after we're explicitly told that he's seen Irene naked). If he just needed to think she was dead, he could have been told that she was dead.   The body instead proves to him that she's alive. I don't really see any way to get round that.

Maybe we (the viewers) are being double tricked, because I don't think we're being fooled along with Sherlock. We're being fooled along with John. Sherlock is deceiving us, and John (and Steven is leading us astray too!). We kind of see it in action right at the end, where Sherlock again appears possibly heartbroken but uncommunicative, and it turns out that he knows Irene is alive and safe. The end is partly a replay of what happens the first time round - Sherlock helps Irene disappear, and while he may be yearning for her, and John and Mycroft may be worrying about him, he knows she's alive.    We just don't see that snippet from Sherlock's POV the first time.

besleybean · May 28, 2017 10:24 am

See I think that's the difference.
First time he really thinks she is dead.
But yeah, definitely at the end, of course he knows she's alive cos he just saved her!

Somebody really needs to aske Steven about this one...if only there was a handy con coming up...
I just feel it adds to Sherlock's love for Irene, that he thought she was lost- but then she is found.
I see triumphalism at the end, when he laughs, cos he he knows he's deceived everyone...I'm not sure it's the same after Battersea, I think it's relief.

Last edited by besleybean (May 28, 2017 10:27 am)

ewige · May 28, 2017 10:33 am

Liberty wrote:
ewige wrote:
Him knowing she wasn't dead after the mortuary would add to the detective show but chip away from a show about the detective.
I think it's the other way round - him knowing she wasn't dead and misidentifying the body tells us more about his heart.

But how? They are still full-on adversaries in those days. I think he was able to save Irene in the end only after having bested her and proven that love is something to be avoided. His move in Karachi was a gentlemanly one. I'm not sure he'd be capable of a similar move in the middle of the game. Irene looked surprised in Karachi too so it might have been her first time being assisted by Sherlock in faking her death.

besleybean · May 28, 2017 10:34 am

I agree.

ewige · May 28, 2017 10:35 am

besleybean wrote:
Somebody really needs to aske Steven about this one...if only there was a handy con coming up...

It's not like there's SHERLOCKED in LA right now *whistles*
I'd have loved for Steven to answer this question too, altho I'll probably stick to my head canon anyway

Last edited by ewige (May 28, 2017 10:35 am)

JP · May 28, 2017 11:21 am

Yeah, sometimes not to know is much more fun. To me the alternative interpretation surfaced after someone asked how Sherlock would get a message from a dead woman, bc there are max. few hours between the message and finding the body, a bit quick imo. But then, maybe Steven just needed something to relieve the tension after Sherlock apologized to Molly. He does that, Steven.

And I do like Sherlock fooling everyone around him. It happens to me quite a lot, when ppl assume I'm upset or sad, because it's what ppl do.

besleybean · May 28, 2017 11:43 am

I certainly think he was amused at fooling people at the end.
I still think he thought that was Irene on the slab...she fooled him that time.
But at the end he returns the compliment: because he led her to believe he was going to abandon her.

Liberty · May 28, 2017 12:14 pm

Yes, I'll probably stick to my head canon too, as the alternative just doesn't make sense for me.   I should probably have asked Tonnaree if she could ask, if she got a chance this weekend! On the other hand, we've had so many mysteries solved, that it might be nice to leave the occasional one still open to speculation!

But anyway, no, I don't think they are full-on adversaries at that point.   People might think they are, perhaps, and Sherlock might let them think that.   But on the whole, at that point, he is the one who has tried to put her life at risk, and I think he's very aware of that.   And in addition, he got sent on the case under false pretences (he was told it was about the pictures of the royal, when that was a minor consideration), and he's very aware of that too.

Sherlock does recover the phone, but even when Irene tells him that she will die if he doesn't give it back, he refuses. I don't think he has any hard feelings when she does manage to get it back from him, and so survive.   But then she also talks to him while he's drugged and comes across almost as a reflection of himself, similar looks, similar deductive powers, etc., and in that dream-like state, they are working together, not against each other. And I think he falls for her.

To push things even further in that direction, he's already miffed at Mycroft sending him on false pretences, and later he defends Irene to Mycroft, but Mycroft winds him even more and warns him off the case.   By that time, I think we can see that he's moving to "side" with Irene, looking her up on the internet, keeping her ring tone, etc. When he gets the text at Christmas they are definitely not adversaries, and it's natural for him to collude with her. (In fact, I don't think I see anything really adversarial from Sherlock towards Irene between initially taking the phone, and "Sherlocked" at the end, but I'll have to think about that!). I suppose it is kind of gentlemanly considering he was the one who was willing to take her phone and essentially kill her in the first place, but I think it's also due to him being intrigued and fascinated, and falling for her - with just a pinch of the pleasure of outwitting Mycroft too, perhaps!

If Irene's surprised in Karachi, I think it will be because she deceived and humiliated him and because he appeared to despise her at the end.

But honestly, the more you think about it, so much points to Sherlock colluding with Irene the first time. Why would she even send him the phone so that she could get killed, for instance? That doesn't make sense. She knows she will die without it. Unless she can make people think she is already dead. Sherlock knows that she knows that he knows that, so he understands what sending the phone means, and immediately sets up Mycroft. I could go on ... it just all fits together so perfectly, and is great foreshadowing, whereas the alternative doesn't make sense.   Yes, that could just be chance (maybe a mistake in the writing), but I like to stick with what for me is the "better" version!

besleybean · May 28, 2017 12:16 pm

I remain unconvinced...can't even remember if the SIB commentary helps us.
But I'm certainly going to watch Sherlock's reactions more closely, when I re-watch this in the Summer.

ewige · May 28, 2017 1:00 pm

I don't think Sherlock could collude with Irene because when I say adversaries, I mean that the game thrills him to much to essentially give up on it by taking the opponent's side.

Liberty · May 28, 2017 1:27 pm

BB, I'm sure there's nothing in the commentary. I would have noticed if there was.   I think it's genuinely meant to initially fool us but be there for us to deduce.   So I have a feeling Steven won't ever tell ... but it may be one of the things that makes it his favourite episode, as it's so cleverly written in. (And I'd be so disappointed if it turned out that was just an accident, and he meant the opposite!).

Yes, it's worth watching with that aspect in mind.   For instance, Sherlock asks to see all of Irene's body when he identifies it, and has a good look.   If he thought it was her up until then, he would have realised at that point that it wasn't. But he confirms it's her ... if anything, he might be reassuring himself that it isn't her.   Or when he unwraps Irene's phone, he looks as if he's thinking rather than grieving - working out what the message is, and what he has to do (then he phones Mycroft).

Yes, I think he would collude. For the reasons I've given above, I think he's starting to see it as Irene and him against Mycroft, and he's in quite a sympathetic mood, having been softened up by inadvertently hurting Molly, while thinking about Irene (I do have "evidence" for that, but feel I'm already rambling on too much!).   And at that point, it's not a game, so much as a chance to save Irene's life.    I don't think he would want her to die, just for the sake of the game (and she would die, unless she was able to "disappear").

So Sherlock helps her disappear in two ways - he tells Mycroft there will be a body (meaning that they actually go looking for a body of roughly Irene's description) and he is the one who identifies it (as everyone knows, Sherlock wouldn't get it wrong - but it also means that Irene doesn't have to kill a twin or find an exact match - Sherlock will positively identify whatever body Mycroft provides).   Without Sherlock's input, Irene wouldn't have been able to disappear - is it just coincidence that he does the things which help her and coincidentally makes a mistake with the body?

Last edited by Liberty (May 28, 2017 1:30 pm)

JP · May 28, 2017 1:30 pm

There is of course a possibility, that the whole episode doesn't make sense at all. Maybe Moff didn't had enough sleep when writing it.

Liberty · May 28, 2017 1:52 pm

JP wrote:
There is of course a possibility, that the whole episode doesn't make sense at all. Maybe Moff didn't had enough sleep when writing it.

Believe me, that has occurred to me, JP! But I think it's not the case because for one, it seems to be the episode Steven is most proud of. And for two, it's not just that it doesn't make sense if Sherlock believes Irene is dead, it's that it makes complete sense if he doesn't. Everything ties together. It foreshadows what's to come. It explains possible "plot holes". It involves Sherlock making a deduction (instead of oddly not picking on why Irene would give him the phone in the first place, when she needs it to stay alive). It fits with what we know of the characters. I just find it hard to believe that was chance.

besleybean · May 28, 2017 1:54 pm

You are very naughty, JP!
Steven loves that episode, as you well know...it's not my favourite of his, but that's because of my own personal issues with Irene.
Seeing as we're on this thread: for me, the point remains: the only attraction Sherlock is ever shown to have, is to Irene...what happens in SIB, is referred to in TSOT(she's a distraction)and then in TLD, Sherlock admits to John that he texts Irene.
Finally(for me, at least) in TFP, Eurus deduces Sherlock has had sex and Irene's tune indicates to me that it's with Irene.

ewige · May 28, 2017 1:56 pm

But why would Irene rely on Sherlock to help her disappear? She has no reason to trust him whatsoever.

ewige · May 28, 2017 1:57 pm

Liberty wrote:
...it's not just that it doesn't make sense if Sherlock believes Irene is dead, it's that it makes complete sense if he doesn't. Everything ties together.

Hmm. I think we'll have to agree to disagree here.

besleybean · May 28, 2017 1:58 pm

See I don't think she does.
I think Sherlock think she's very smart at disappearing and fooling everyone...and that gives him an idea.

Last edited by besleybean (May 28, 2017 1:58 pm)

ewige · May 28, 2017 2:18 pm

besleybean wrote:
See I don't think she does.
I think Sherlock think she's very smart at disappearing and fooling everyone...and that gives him an idea.

We need Liberty to answer this question since we are on the same side of the argument.

Liberty · May 28, 2017 4:20 pm

ewige wrote:
But why would Irene rely on Sherlock to help her disappear? She has no reason to trust him whatsoever.

She's extremely perceptive (she knows what people like) and I think she susses him out.   She also knows. I believe, that she has said and done the right things to make him fall for her (again she knows what people like). This is what she does.   She manipulates him into helping. She has been texting him and she is very much on his mind.

"That camera phone is my life, Mr Holmes. I’d die before I let you take it. It’s my protection." (Thank you, Ariane DeVere!) She has good reason to rely on Sherlock, because he's in a position where he can communicate with Mycroft, identify the body and be believed. He's ideal.    She knows that he knows that she wouldn't have just left her phone on his mantelpiece without some purpose, because losing it would mean she would be dead soon.   The only reason she would let go of her phone is if she had some other protection - which in this case is the authorities believing she is already dead, so that they don't go looking for her.   Sherlock could easily deduce this, given what he knows.   It has been left for him specifically, so that he will arrange this.

Now, having deduced this, Sherlock has a choice to not co-operate and either keep the phone or give it to Mycroft, and Irene will die.   Or he can collude with her, get one up on Mycroft, keep the phone and Irene lives, although he probably won't be able to have contact with her.   I think Irene correctly deduces that he would take the second option. Of course he would!   And at that point, we know that she knows that he doesn't know much about what's on the phone - he's not thinking in terms of saving lives by giving it to Mycroft.   It's been implanted in his head that it contains sensitive information just for the purpose of protecting Irene. Along with some saucy pics.    He also trusts her more than he should (he solves the puzzle for later at 221B, not realising that she's sending information to Moriarty).

Short answer: she trusts him because she knows how his mind works, and because she has primed him.