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Well done, Schmiezi.
The thing is I do not feel at any point that John was feeling complete with Mary. At least not while she was alive which is exactly the crux IMO. You often cherish and miss things or people only after you have lost them. But as long as Mary was alive, there was always tension, the wish for something or someone else, the shadows of her past, in TST also the impression that Mary had replaced John as Sherlock's crime-solving partner because she "was better". To me the relationship between the three as well as the marriage seemed uneasy. Which is probably the reason why both do not appear in Canon. They do not fit into this universe.
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I agree, SusiGo. John was never content with Mary. He might have cared for her, loved her in some way, enjoyed spending time with her - but he was never content with her. He seemed always a bit unhappy, always wanting something else, something more.
Interestingly enough, the only time he seemed content with Mary, was before Sherlock returned. As I've said before - if Sherlock had actually been dead and never returned, and Mary had never been revelead to be an assassin (or, if so, she would've been the one to tell him), I think John could have been as happy as he could have been without Sherlock.
You could say that he wasn't content in HLV because he missed Sherlock. But in TST, John has Mary, a daughter, a job AND a working friendship with Sherlock - and he still isn't content. And pre-Mary, when he lived with 221b, he was always chasing women, not content then either. So when he) was living with Sherlock, he missed women. When he had a woman (Mary), he missed Sherlock. When he had Mary AND Sherlock, he missed... more women?
It's like John is, as he put it himself, always looking for something more. But I am not sure if he himself knows what that "more" actually is.
Last edited by Vhanja (May 12, 2017 10:25 am)
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Great post Vhanja.
I think it is possible that John won't know what it is he is missing until it hits him in the face.
(My guess of course would be a romantic relationship with Sherlock if course. But if that is not it, what else could it be?)
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To be the Devil's advocate, if he was never really content with Mary, perhaps that meant she wasn't "the one". And so one alternative to Sherlock being the one, could be some other woman that he hasn't yet met.
But that would be difficult either way. Because whomever that woman would be, Mary or someone else, it would be difficult to balance that dynamic with Sherlock. And I don't think John would ever be truly content and happy without Sherlock in his life.
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Of course not, they are best friends.
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besleybean wrote:
Of course not, they are best friends.
Sherlock as best friend AND wife and child does not fulfil him.
But according to those last scenes of TFP, just Sherlock and child make him happy.
Strange, isn't it?
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I will say it again, if I was a betting woman(and I'm not): I would put money on the fact that John would give anything to have Mary back.
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We don't actually see John and Mary having much of a chance to be happy ... I'm sure they're apart on HLV for as long as they're together in TST. And because of the hiatus and TAB it seems like ages since their reconcilation, but in fact they go very quickly from that to the baby being born and all the stress that brings, and then it's not long after that Mary's life is threatened with the accompanying drama and then she's dead. I also think it's clear that though John loves Mary, he doesn't love the domestic life and he doesn't adapt terribly well to the pressures of parenthood (I don't think either of them do). And yes, it could be that she's not "the one", but I don't think that's the case - especially seeing how devastated he is at losing her (and also how he forgave her). It's clear that they are "in a good place" just before Mary dies.
But to be on topic, I don't think there's any indication of him wanting a romantic relationship with Sherlock. That has been confirmed over and over.
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I still find it strange that we never hear John say either "I love you" or "I forgive you" directly to Mary.
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But it's good enough for him...
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What's good enough for who?
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I was referring to the Xmas reconciliation scene.
I know John didn't know everything then...but I think he could kind of work out what an assassin did.
Hey, least his sister didn't kill is best friend!
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I think it's partly about the focus of the story - the show isn't about John and Mary, but John and Sherlock. So we see Mary mainly in terms of her effect on the two of them.
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Quite so.
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I don't think we can take the grieving of John as a "proof" of deep and true love, as in "she was the one".
I have to say that I quite like how the relationship between John and Mary is shown - at least according to how I interpret it. Because I think John's feelings towards Mary are very nuanced and complex. And I think they change throughout their relationship.
I think that in the beginning, Mary showed him compassion, comfort and caring in a time where he so desperately needed it. She was, back then, what he thought he wanted - something normal. Something very different from Sherlock. Sassy, intelligent, warm - just the right fit for who he was and where he was at the time.
Then Sherlock returned, which complicated things. How much it complicated things depends on whether you believe in Johnlock or not. But I think that either way, John struggled a bit with the dynamic and how to balance out the time between Sherlock and Mary.
By the start of HLV, I think he still loves Mary. But I think he is also starting to realise, especially with Sherlock's return, that a wife and a house in the suburbs isn't for him. He is newly-wed with a baby on his way, and his best friend is back - he is supposed to be happy. Yet he isn't. That is to say I wouldn't go as far as to say he is unhappy. But he is certainly not content.
Then the reveal happens and everything crumbles. And I think John says it the best, and it gets me every time, when he says: "But she wasn't supposed to be like that!"
And that is the crux of it. Mary wasn't supposed to be a Sherlock light. She wasn't supposed to be his replacement - she was supposed to be different. Refreshingly normal, so that nothing about her could remind him of his old life in 221b - yet that Mary that he wanted was someone that he wasn't content with, even though he (in my opinion) loved her.
And I think what hurt him the most was the betrayal. The lies. Yet he tries again.
And by TST, he supposedly has everything. A fine dynamic between the three of them, baby, job etc etc. But I don't think he is perfectly happy with the dynamic. I think he sometimes feels a bit left out by Sherlock and Mary. They have something in common that, even though that is exactly that which draws him to them both, it is also the same that can sometimes create a common front against him.
And so the interesting bit - when we see him when he should have been at his happiest, he isn't. We see that relationship with Mary is experiencing difficulties, he "used to" like Mary.
Even so, I don't think it's black and white. I don't think that either you experience perfect love that is only aimed at The One, or you don't love that person at all. I think that John still loved Mary, but love comes in a great variety. You can have rough patches in a relationship, and still love your partner. You can love someone else, you can want a divorce - and still love your partner. Love is so much, in so many shades and degrees.
So just as his feelings towards Mary were complicated, so were his grief. I think he loved her, I think he honestly grieved for her. You would have to be stone cold to not grieve for the mother/father of your child and your spouse, even if you had a complicated relationship and were in a rough patch. And, of course, his grief was mixed with guilt, anger etc as we have talked about before.
I won't dare to venture a guess at just how much John loved Mary or how strong it was. Or even if they would have stayed together for long had she lived. But I do think that, in some degree and variation, he loved her to the end.
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I agree so much with some of your points here, Vhanja, especially about the nature of love! It's not simple or clearcut at all.
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Indeed and I really don't think the team would go to the trouble of pairing John with a wife he was not really bothered about...
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Very well said Vhanja.
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Wonderful post again, Vhanja!
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So I just watched "The Three Gables" yesterday ... (and no, these are not my non-existent photoshop skills).
Last edited by SusiGo (May 16, 2017 1:34 pm)