BBC Sherlock Fan Forum - Serving Sherlockians since February 2012 » Johnlock: The Official Debate

besleybean · May 3, 2017 4:21 pm

I assume this is why people then went over to the Mary thread.
John didn't have to marry Mary, he chose to.
I don't think he regrets that decision.
I think he loved her.
With more time, I'm sure things would have worked out fine for them.
He has Rosie and that must be some compensation.
Sherlock is the best caring, loving, supportive and helpful friend he can be.

Schmiezi · May 3, 2017 5:05 pm

besleybean wrote:
I think he loved her.
With more time, I'm sure things would have worked out fine for them.

Where exactly do you see love or affection on screen in S4?

besleybean · May 3, 2017 5:08 pm

Not much between any of them, to be honest...it was all a bit fraught.
I know it was too late, but the death scene...I think John was broken hearted.
I suppose it's possible to argue Mary came off lightly, in terms of feeling John's wrath...at least she didn't get a good kicking like his best friend did.

tonnaree · May 3, 2017 5:14 pm

History is filled with examples of people who choose to marry the wrong person.

I said myself that John did love Mary, in his own way, but I continue to believe that she was mainly his way of dealing with the loss of Sherlock. When Sherlock came back he didn't need her in the same way anymore.

This all does tie into why I still believe in Johnlock.

Last edited by tonnaree (May 3, 2017 5:17 pm)

besleybean · May 3, 2017 5:16 pm

Funny how he married and started a family with her then.

Schmiezi · May 3, 2017 5:18 pm

besleybean wrote:
Funny how he married and started a family with her then.

Again, not the first person in the world to make thst mistake. Besides, the starting a family thing was not intended - at least not on his part.

besleybean · May 3, 2017 5:20 pm

He didn't have to stay with her.

Schmiezi · May 3, 2017 5:25 pm

besleybean wrote:
He didn't have to stay with her.

I am sure he wouldn't had she survived S4.

tonnaree · May 3, 2017 5:29 pm

Schmiezi wrote:
besleybean wrote:
He didn't have to stay with her.
I am sure he wouldn't had she survived S4.

Seconded.

John himself said that Mary wasn't "enough." This is where the rage and guilt come from after her death.

besleybean · May 3, 2017 5:42 pm

Again, something we'll have to disagree on.
Not what John said, but the course of marriage.

Schmiezi · May 3, 2017 5:46 pm

tonnaree wrote:
Schmiezi wrote:
besleybean wrote:
He didn't have to stay with her.
I am sure he wouldn't had she survived S4.
Seconded.

John himself said that Mary wasn't "enough." This is where the rage and guilt come from after her death.

Right. He said Mary wasn't enough and he acted accordingly by flirting with someone else.

besleybean · May 3, 2017 5:50 pm

A woman.

Schmiezi · May 3, 2017 5:51 pm

besleybean wrote:
A woman.

Why did he do that if Mary was the love of her life?

besleybean · May 3, 2017 5:53 pm

I was going to say because men are idiots, but that's unfair...
We did discuss it at the time.
Kind of a mid-life crisis. Wanted to know he'd still got it.

Liberty · May 3, 2017 6:33 pm

Well, he didn't really do much - he was tempted but decided not to stray.

I do think it's shown that he loves her deeply, but maybe it's subtle.

I think John's words to Sherlock about a love "completing" him, are about him and Mary. Yes, he wants that for Sherlock too, but he's speaking from his own experience, about what Mary meant to him.

Schmiezi · May 3, 2017 6:56 pm

Liberty wrote:
Well, he didn't really do much - he was tempted but decided not to stray.

I do think it's shown that he loves her deeply, but maybe it's subtle.

I think John's words to Sherlock about a love "completing" him, are about him and Mary. Yes, he wants that for Sherlock too, but he's speaking from his own experience, about what Mary meant to him.

Again, where are all the scenes that show his love for her? I completely fail to see them.

besleybean · May 3, 2017 7:18 pm

One could argue the same for John and Sherlock, though I accept you would expect it less with best friends.

Schmiezi · May 3, 2017 7:23 pm

besleybean wrote:
One could argue the same for John and Sherlock, though I accept you would expect it less with best friends.

What are you referring to?

Liberty · May 3, 2017 7:37 pm

There's the scene I mentioned above, for instance. There's John being able to forgive Mary, still wanting to be with her despite everything, his devastation and grief at her death. I think the love in TLD is almost palpable.

Schmiezi · May 12, 2017 4:26 am

tonnaree wrote:
Schmiezi wrote:
tonnaree wrote:

Well, one usually doesn't look at one's sibling like one wants to shag them into the floor.
But that's just my interpretation.
In my new fic, I will include a scene where Sherlock shags John into the floor just for you dear! <3
Thank you darling! xoxoxoxoxoxo

Done! :-D