I speak excusively for myself now. Putting what I see between John and Sherlock in (foreign) words is not easy, I hope I can get my point across.

I think they are in love with each other. Unrequited love so far.

There is nothing sexual going on between them so far but I see both of them wanting it one time or another. That does not mean they are both horny all the time but the sexual attraction exists. There are loads of screenshots all over this thread to demonstrate what I mean. Go ahead and look at them. John staring at Sherlock’s backside, for example.

I see them looking at each other longingly, I see them needing each other to be complete.

My son makes me watch Finding Nemo once a day these days, and every time I hear Dory say a special part of dialogue, I have to think about our boys. When Marlin is about to leave her near the end, she says "I look at you, and ... I am home". This is how I see John and Sherlock. This is what I mean when I say they share a bond that is beyond friendship and beyond sex.

John has not been home with Mary. He would have been happy in his marriage if he had been.

John is only home when he is with Sherlock, and Sherlock is only home when he is with John.

Do I think they will celebrate that with shagging in every room of 221b? God yes, I do. But there is so much more to what they will be. There will be deep friendship and there will be sex and there will be more than the sum of these two aspects.

They will both be home.

Last edited by Schmiezi (May 2, 2017 7:42 pm)

Yes, and it's not just Hollywood.  It's the stories we're brought up on, especially as women/girls, I think - the famous female stars of fairytales tend to end up with the guy/prince.  There are quite a few who don't, but the romance ending is the classic happy ending.  And in books, films, TV you often expect people to pair up.   So pairing Sherlock and John seems quite natural. 

I did answer the question above about what they could become after Mary's death - the heroes of legend.  (If they were going to become lovers - well, they could have done that at any time, before or after Mary.  Or during, I suppose.  But it just doesn't happen).   I think the point there is about them being flawed characters and doubting themselves, but Mary/us knowing what they will become.  

Schmiezi, I loved your post, and I do get your point there.  I feel something similar - that they belong together, and I want it to be the two of them.  But I don't think that means as lovers.   John's comment about "completing", I think is about him genuinely wanting Sherlock to be happy.   He knows he can't provide love and friendship, but not that. 

Sherlock coming back for John is a big thing, I agree.  But it doesn't need to mean he fancies him, in the end.  We even see Mary giving up her life for Sherlock - that's a big thing too, but doesn't mean she fancies him! 



 

I have never understood the concept of bromance and would like to quote Jude Law who is talking about Holmes and Watson, too:

"Bromance? It’s a horrible term. What about just a romance?”

Bromance is a ridiculous word created by heterosexual men because they are terrified that someone might for one second think they might be gay if they express affection for another male.

Well I am still misunderstanding and one may see it as repetition and fixation, but let's consider why that might be.
Possibly because I am dealing with what we are actually shown  in the show, what some of us see and what the creators and actors have said about their own work.
There is one man who isn't shown to be in an established relationship with anyone, though there are hints that the only person he has been 'romantically'(and that's still a bit of a minefield)linked to is a female.
There is another man who is shown after a series of girlfriends marries and starts a family with the woman who for me(and I would suspect for the team)is the love of his life.  Yes the marriage experiences difficulties(people are lucky if theirs hasn't), but the man seeks 'distraction'(again contentious) with another woman.
Now through all of this, yes we are shown the growing and strengthening bond between the two male leads.
But I stand by my claim that I see nothing there that means 'romance' to me, again, depending on what you mean.
It is a close, loving friendship between two men and I am happy to personally know of such relationships..

Last edited by besleybean (May 3, 2017 5:39 am)

And the writers have made it as  clear as they can that they are not going down that route.
Repetition?
Yes, but this doesn't stop it from being real.
This has to at least count as much as speculation.

I do think it's interesting that they keep comparing the love betwen Sherlock and John and the love between John and Mary. Or at least putting it up there as something similar and equally strong. I can imagine it was done to show that those two both meant a lot to John - Mary as a romantic partner and Sherlock as his closest friend.



 

I need to take a moment and whole heartedly disagree that Mary is the love of John's life. 

He does love her in his way and is deeply grateful for her being there when Sherlock was "dead."  However, except for a couple of moments at their wedding we do not see them presented as a happy couple.  It's not just a matter of occasional trouble, we're not shown their marriage as being a happy stable relationship.

If Sherlock had really died I think John would've stayed with Mary because even though she wasn't what he wanted, she could be enough.  Once Sherlock came back though she could never be enough.  And we are shown that clearly in the story.

No matter what other terms you may use to describe their relationship I believe that Sherlock is the love of John's life.

I think that their relationship is portrayed in a quite nuanced and interesting matter. I do not think that Mary was "the love of John's life" (I am not sure if such a thing exist in real life as you can love many people for different reasons, but I digress). But I do think that he did love her in some way - he says so in his own words as shown with a few of your quotes, Susi.

As I've said before, if Sherlock had never returned and Mary's secret had never come out, I think John would have a good life with Mary. However, as we are shown, he is not content with that life alone. And I think his feelings for Mary became much more complicated after her revelation, which is heavily implied by John himself: ("I used t like it too".)

But I do think John's grief over Mary's death is genuine. Yes, there is gult and anger, but I do believe he loved her in a way, even though it wasn't a perfect, fairytale love. There were dark sides, conflicts and doubt, but I do think John always had feelings for her.

And, so, yes, I do believe that - at least in the beginning - John loved both Mary and Sherlock. But you can't really compare love because there is different types of love towards different types of persons. John's love for Rosie would be again different etc.

Indeed. It would have been easy to slip a simple "I love you" into a scene but they chose not to. But then they are quite economical with the expression. It is only used twice in the show - in ASiP by a minor character to another minor character and in TFP where it is forced and one-sided. 

So it is more like "show, don't tell". But then - and we have discussed this a lot in other threads as well - I have never seen much tenderness and love in Mary's and John's relationship. This is my personal view and I know some of you do not agree which is fine. But John's reaction to Mary's death - or better his behaviour towards Sherlock - only makes sense if John is driven by guilt and self-loathing, a word used by Inner Mary. Which means his reaction towards Sherlock is triggered by his own feelings of not being good enough or loyal enough or loving enough.
 

Last edited by SusiGo (May 3, 2017 3:52 pm)