The relationship between John and Mary was established while John believed Sherlock to be dead and I think that is important. He just didn't have and failed in providing the same level of commitment after Sherlock returned. I think that's a big part of John's guilt.
John realised a long time ago relationships were not compatible with his life with Sherlock and Sherlock as is plain to see is all about John. Thats the story they are telling.

I think they have shown huge interest in each other !

I'm not sold on a romantic relationship between Sherlock and Irene, they clearly have a connection, he likes her and he is definitely fascinated by her but not sure I would call it love.

I think if they do go the Johnlock route then it could be very sweet if written well, which I am sure it would be, (despite me previously saying I wasn't sure how well a romantic relationship would work on the show) however, I'm still not convinced that's what they're doing. The scene with Mary telling John to get the hell on with being the man he wants to and then the hug from Sherlock if watched in isolation and out of context does seem to be quite romantic though. If it Johnlock does happen I would be surprised but I suppose, pleasantly surprised. 

I think it was clear that ordinary girlfriends, who would not accept John's devotion to Sherlock weren't right for him.  But Mary was different.  And his relationship with her continues and develops after Sherlock returns - they go on to get married and have a child.  Mary was an exception and was compatible with John and Sherlock's relationship.  In fact, it's Mary who tries to get them together again after the fall, who gets them out on cases and so on (and even tries to reconcile them from beyond the grave!). 

I don't see Sherlock as sexually/romantically attracted to Moriarty, so it's a different kind of fascination.

And I agree Besleybean - I think it's significant that they've only shown the guys being attracted to women.   That leaves them straight by default (and certainly straight-identified in John's case!).   I'm not sure that's the story they'd want to tell if they were going for incidentally gay characters. 

Now, I do think Sherlock is a little sexually ambiguous, so I could believe he was gay.   But continually having Irene as the symbol of sexual attraction has to be deliberate.  If it was the other way round, and Irene had been male, then of course we'd be saying he was gay, and saying he was straight would seem like erasure.   And there was a choice to do this with Irene too - it's not really in the original story, well, not so clearly.   But I do remember an interview with Steven Moffat where he said he realised that actually Holmes fancied Irene.  So I think that's his personal take on it, and it was he who wrote ASIB (and of course TLD, where it's confirmed that Sherlock still has a crush on her!  Which I think is kind of sweet.  She knew what he liked, in the end!).

Denial - my absolutely favorite argument.
We've had also a huge interest in each other with my best friend.
 

Liberty wrote:
I don't see Sherlock as sexually/romantically attracted to Moriarty, so it's a different kind of fascination.

Yes, my point is that I think it's the same different kind of fascination with Irene too.

Liberty wrote:
So I think that's his personal take on it, and it was he who wrote ASIB (and of course TLD, where it's confirmed that Sherlock still has a crush on her!  Which I think is kind of sweet.  She knew what he liked, in the end!).

besleybean wrote:
Benedict has also stated that he feels Sherlock was attracted to Irene.

I know, he also stated that they shared a night of passion after he rescued her ;)

PS: What's with the odd formatting? Haven't been able to edit the post. Have I broken the forum?

besleybean wrote:

I just think it's an interesting suggestion that we all only see in the characters what we want to see...it's just not true in my case.

Rumor has it there are also people who don't see what they don't want to see

On a different note - what do you think, how is John supposed to find a girl that's compatible to Sherlock? It's not that he hasn't tried. I don't think Moftiss will leave him for the years to come in the state of permanent sexual frustration.

Yes, his temptation would have been Sherlock, if it was going to be, not a girl on a bus.  (And it would have been much more angsty!)

But this is interesting to discuss now we've finally got more data!  And yet again, I watch the episodes, as I did with TAB and think that's Johnlock put to rest, only to come here and find that the episodes have fueled the fire, and people see them as confirmation!  So we really are seeing through different eyes, I think.

In five days, we will know for sure what the story they've been telling all along is, and what's groundbreaking, what's television history.  I'm so excited!

I think the grander place is Mycroft's house, and I think he destroys it himself, but I'm getting way OT too!

ewige wrote:

Liberty wrote:
I don't see Sherlock as sexually/romantically attracted to Moriarty, so it's a different kind of fascination.

Yes, my point is that I think it's the same different kind of fascination with Irene too.

Liberty wrote:
So I think that's his personal take on it, and it was he who wrote ASIB (and of course TLD, where it's confirmed that Sherlock still has a crush on her!  Which I think is kind of sweet.  She knew what he liked, in the end!).

besleybean wrote:
Benedict has also stated that he feels Sherlock was attracted to Irene.

I know, he also stated that they shared a night of passion after he rescued her ;)

PS: What's with the odd formatting? Haven't been able to edit the post. Have I broken the forum?

I don't know about the formatting.  Seems to be working for me!  And sorry, I've crossposted, so I'll answer these now.   I do think it's sexual/romantic attraction to Irene in the end - it has an intellectual basis, but don't we all fall for people for various reasons, including their intellect?  I think that as he becomes more human it's more obvious to him, that it's just common or garden fancying her and falling for her.  I think that's fairly clear in TAB, and even more clear in TLD, maybe. 

I thought that Benedict's take was just his personal head canon, but I do think it's important in that it shows how he's playing the character.  But Steven's take is also important.  Steven is a big, old romantic. 

I think he also said something about Sherlock not being attracted to John because he wouldn't live with somebody who caused him that kind of stress, and I think that rings true - much as I love UST, and the thought of Sherlock desparately trying to repress his "urges", I don't think he'd put himself in that situation.   He makes sure he's well removed from Irene, and even feels bad about giving into the temptation to text back.  (I don't think they have actually had sex and I don't think they will - it would have to be a bit of a disappointment after trying to avoid it for all those years!).

 

Last edited by Liberty (January 10, 2017 6:28 pm)

I can imagine!  I think it would involve mind games ...

But no, I don't think it will happen.  Even though I would really like to see Sherlock let the floodgates open, or let the volcano erupt.