I don't think the relationship was crumbling.
I think they had problems which they would have worked out.

Yes but as Mark said on the commentary:  John was bored of the suburban doctoring, not bored with Mary.

DVD extras are essential viewing.

It did seem clear to me that the marriage (Mary and John) were falling apart, at least from John's side. 

"I like Mary"
"Me too. Or at least I used to..."

I never really comment on the Johnlock debate because I don't see either viewpoints as wrong, it's never been specifically stated in the show that they're in love but never has it been denied so to me it is up to the viewer and how they want to interpret the relationship. What ever angle people want to view and enjoy the show from is fine by me. I don't really see the need to prove one or the other wrong.

It is clear that John and Sherlock care deeply for each other and I can definitely see how certain scenes, such as John seemingly flirting (at least Sherlock picked up on it as flirting) with Sherlock in the restaurant in ASiP, his lack of a response to Irene when she said even though she was gay and John was not they were still infatuated by Sherlock and John's "I don't mind" in TSoT to name a few can be taken to be hints at Johnlock however, I am not sure if they would ever explicitly confirm it. I can equally see points, for example John's previous girlfriends and obviously his marriage to Mary, where it would seem Johnlock is not what they're going for.

I do sometimes like the idea of Johnlock and quite enjoy reading some fan fiction where they are a couple but I'm not sure how well a romantic relationship would actually play out in the show and definitely not because it would be a gay relationship but because it would be a relationship full stop. For example, if I watched Elementary (which I don't so maybe not the best example) I'm not sure how a relationship between their Holmes and Watson would work either.

The other point that someone mentioned previously (sorry I forgot who) that I think rings true for me was that Mark has previously said that he wants gay relationships to be treated as any other relationship, not as something that defines a couple and not as some big issue, rather two people who are in love and happen to be the same sex. If they now make Sherlock and John get together it seems to kind of go against this as it will clearly be a big deal.

On the flip side they have said that this series is going to be something revolutionary and not done before and having John and Sherlock a couple would definitely fit that bill.

So, after a longish post where I've just kind of rambled along, I think my point is that I don't view either seeing Johnlock or not seeing Johnlock as wrong and I'm personally not expecting/hoping for one or the other. I'm just following along and enjoying the show and seeing where it takes us.

Last edited by Lis (January 2, 2017 3:23 pm)

Vhanja wrote:

It did seem clear to me that the marriage (Mary and John) were falling apart, at least from John's side. 

"I like Mary"
"Me too. Or at least I used to..."

I think that as well as both of them struggling with dealing with a baby, there's the fact that John has decided to shut out all of Mary's past and forgive her.  Then it comes back to haunt him again, and not only that he finds that she lied about the tiny bit of information she'd given him.   (It wasn't completely a lie - she should have said "our" initials, instead of "my" initials).    And then she disappears, rather than staying and sorting things out.   I think he's pissed off about all that. 

But I thought it was clear towards the end that they had kind of made up, and John was about to confess about his own lie.  He's completely devastated when she dies.

(I also think there's a little pun in there - rather than he used to like Mary but now he doesn't, you could hear it as he used to like Mary, now he likes Rosamund.  I don't think that's what he actually means, but it's there!). 

Oh my point about it being seen as wrong was definitely not directed at you Liberty, or anyone in particular, but rather the situation in general regarding those who see Johnlock and those who do not and the sometimes us vs them attitude (usually seen on tumblr haha).

I can just see and understand both sides of the argument for and against Johnlock (maybe I'm just good at sitting on the fence haha).

Last edited by Lis (January 2, 2017 4:30 pm)

So now I think it's clear that John was in love with Mary.  He was tempted to be unfaithful by another woman.  And Sherlock is still tempted by Irene years down the line!  (I thought it kind of sweet that he still cares).   With one episode to go, possibly even the last, I don't see how they can set up a Johnlock story? 

Last edited by Liberty (January 9, 2017 11:05 am)

Vhanja wrote:

I think the moment that sort of sealed it to me (that it won't happen) was John pushing Sherlock towards Irene.

He knew that love didn't last. People die, horribly and unexpectedly. And you need to grasp the opportunities you have for love, because you are lucky if you get them. With such a mindset, it would make sense for John to pursue Sherlock, if he felt like it. Instead, he pushed Sherlock towards Irene so that he could also experience love.

Yeah, only that John's speech was 100% John and Sherlock, altho the names used were Sherlock and Irene. I think John's about to realize something big time - something that he's realized with his heart but not with his head yet.

Either way I'm in johnlock heaven already now. Apparently an emtional conversation between the two was all I needed all along to be happy.

ewige wrote:

Vhanja wrote:

I think the moment that sort of sealed it to me (that it won't happen) was John pushing Sherlock towards Irene.

He knew that love didn't last. People die, horribly and unexpectedly. And you need to grasp the opportunities you have for love, because you are lucky if you get them. With such a mindset, it would make sense for John to pursue Sherlock, if he felt like it. Instead, he pushed Sherlock towards Irene so that he could also experience love.

Yeah, only that John's speech was 100% John and Sherlock, altho the names used were Sherlock and Irene. I think John's about to realize something big time - something that he's realized with his heart but not with his head yet.
.

​Oh, I hadn't seen it that way! Thanks for making me feel a bit better about this scene!

​That scene, which showed all the love John had for Mary (I don't mean I doubted that, well, maybe a bit in last week's episode. But it was a clear reminder) and which showed John pushing Sherlock to Irene, ruined all my Johnlock hopes.

​I mean, I was not expecting a real relationship (as in romantic Relationship)  between the two, well, i'd be overjoyed if that happened, but I would already be really happy if we didn't get that (kisses or whatever) but simply an aknowledgement of their feelings. Yes, we did get that (verbally in TSOT and in every single episode, there is absolutely no doubt those two care deeply for each other, we have been proven that so many times) but I've always hoped that at least one of them (preferably Sherlock) admits to deeper feelings. (like if John pushes him to a woman, Sherlock would reply that he already has someone in his life --implying John-- and that he doesn't need anyone else. I would already be very happy with just that)

​But after that scene, I was like "Ok, that's very clear now. I get it. It'll never ever happen." I was fine with it because I don't watch the show in the sole hope to see Johnlock come to life, but I must admit I couldn't help but feel a bit disappointed.

​The hug after that helped me feel better but still.

​But now you mention it, it's true that John could have unconsciously (or not) talk indirectely about him and Sherlock while talking about Irene and Sherlock. And now I remember Irene is very smart. And she seemed pretty sure of herself when she said "Well, I am. And look at us both".

​And talking about that, yes, John has only dated women so far (as far as we know) but apparently, Irene had only fallen in love with women and that didn't prevent her from falling for Sherlock. Lately, one of the directors of my company, who is his sixtyish, divorced, father of 4 children and known to date women, surprised us all by announcing he was gay and had always felt like he was imprisoned in a man's body. He changed his firstname, started to dress as a woman and let his hair grow, and he's going to have a sex change surgery soon So I guess nothing can surprise me anymore! lol.

​To come back to Johnlock, I'm not completely convinced that John was talking about he and Sherlock in that scene ( and if i am honest, I don't think we'll ever see Johnlock) but I certainly want to believe it, so that I can still hope a little!