I don't mean romantic in the sense of "want to be lovers", but more in the broad sense that John and Sherlock are romantic.  They might banter, but would lay down their lives for each other.  Dying to save somebody else is kind of romantic.   My point is really that some of the things people see as being romantic about John/Sherlock also apply to Sherlock/Mary, yet none of us think there's anything going on there.

I agree, that vow was mentioned a lot - there was actually more reference than I expected back to HLV and the past. 

Another thing - the bus stop lady is presented as John's first real temptation to stray since being with Mary.   I thought it was pretty clear that he hasn't felt that way about Sherlock - that having those feelings about somebody else has really preyed on his mind, yet he didn't feel guilty about Sherlock.

Last edited by Liberty (January 2, 2017 12:35 pm)

It's not just doing things, though, it's having those feelings.  That's what he'd feel bad about and feel the need to confess.  He would have essentially have lied to Mary since the beginning about the nature of his feelings for Sherlock.  Of course, playing devil's advocate, it could be that that's what he's referring to with his comment about "lies", and that's what he was going to confess at the end before the text from Sherlock.   We just assume he's thinking about bus stop lady. 

My view on the affair thing is that John is restless and needs something for himself, maybe a Sherlock substitute since he can't have him anymore without Mary and Rosie tagging along at the same time. I know this is by far not the definitive reading so I concede all the argument about it in advance.

However the ep feels definitely johnlocky in the grander scheme of things because if the big dark drama is the falling out between John and Sherlock, then their big reconciliation must be the happy end - and not just as friends because John is apparently restless without some action and having girlfriends next to Sherlock never worked well.

I don't understand what people mean about John not being able to have Sherlock?
They are friends for life.
There will be no replacement Sherlock.
How anybody can see anything even remotely Johnlocky in this episode is beyond me...
They will reconcile, but we are not going to see the hugs, kisses and love making that John shared with Mary.
But the point is John  has always wanted girlfriends...not Sherlock.
Johnlock remains the mystery it has always been. For me, nothing in the show points to it in any way.

Last edited by besleybean (January 2, 2017 1:45 pm)

Broken things need to be repaired in the culmination leading to the happy ending. It's like, the law of the genre. We seem to agree on that and just disagree how much romance will be involved, right?

I get the romantic resolution from John's need to be romantically involved and inability to have constant girlfriends when living with Sherlock. I also think that Sherlock already loves John and would take him back on any conditions. This season will be about John realizing he can have everything he wants with Sherlock and without being guilt-ridden over it all the time.
 

Yes. We know John was attracted to Mary because she was like Sherlock but paradoxically he thought he was escaping his addiction to Sherlock and danger. Johns a classic case of denial. Going for normal and boring when what he actually really likes is the exact opposite. When it turned out Mary was actually just like Sherlock , once again he is wishing for normality.

I don't know if that's true (about the background).  I just see John being consistently attracted to women, but never to men.  So it looks like he is picky about gender, regardless of how we see it! 

ewige wrote:

Broken things need to be repaired in the culmination leading to the happy ending. It's like, the law of the genre. We seem to agree on that and just disagree how much romance will be involved, right?

I get the romantic resolution from John's need to be romantically involved and inability to have constant girlfriends when living with Sherlock. I also think that Sherlock already loves John and would take him back on any conditions. This season will be about John realizing he can have everything he wants with Sherlock and without being guilt-ridden over it all the time.
 

Thanks for the explanation!   I just don't see a romantic (in the narrow sense) resolution as being the only thing possible.   There are different kinds of relationships, and different kinds of endings.  And yes, it may be that John's addiction to Sherlock tends to exclude any lasting romantic relationships.  But perhaps that is just being true to the books, where wives, etc., are swept under the carpet. 

Another thing is that it's not just the relationship with a dangerous person, it's the actually going out and doing dangerous things.   We see both him and Mary struggle, almost in the same way Sherlock does, when their fix is taken away.  Sherlock isn't satisfied just being able to see John without a case either.  The danger element is still an important part of their relationship - but I don't think it ever has been sexual.  It's a bond that they have. 

The redhead didn't seem overly young or sexy to me. Just a little forward and charmingly awkward about it.

besleybean wrote:

So do some people think that any 2 men could end up as lovers?

Sure, why not? If they are so in love with each other already. Sex doesn't have to be the necessary next step but a mutual commitment of sorts would be enough for me.

besleybean wrote:

Also, some of us don't necessarily blag about all our deepest, darkest secrets on debate fora- just saying.

I didn't invite anybody to share anything they are not comfortable with talking about, but everybody can decide for themselves if my theory is valid.

To be fair...they weren't coping with a crying baby!
I just don't understand why if either of them are interested in any man, they have never been seen to be so.
In fact, both of them have only ever been shown to be interested in women.