BBC Sherlock Fan Forum - Serving Sherlockians since February 2012 » Johnlock: The Official Debate

Vhanja · November 13, 2016 6:24 pm

I think it does too. I mean... John seems more happy and content when he lived with Sherlock than he does when living with Mary.

But he did try for a while to find a romantic partner (dating women), so it seems clear that a romantic/sexual relationship was something he was missing. Even so, it's quite telling that he seemed happier living in a non-romantic relationship with Sherlock than he did living in a romantic relationship with Mary.

Vhanja · November 14, 2016 7:19 pm

I don't know if this has been linked to before in this thread or not, but I thought it a nice reference - and can be read either as a list "proof" of Johnlock (no, Liberty, no one is going to ask you to comment all these - it would be a life's worth of work. XD ), or just as examples of what is interpreted as the trope Ho Yay, whether it's real or not. (Although this lists all kind of Ho Yay found in the show, not just Sherlock and John).

Either way, I find it an interesting overview of the subject in general.

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/HoYay/Sherlock

Oh, and for those unfamiliar with the trope name, here's the main trope page that gives an explanation:

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/HoYay

Last edited by Vhanja (November 14, 2016 7:22 pm)

SusiGo · November 14, 2016 7:39 pm

I agree with you, Liberty and Vhanja. I think we just have different views on how this "happier with Sherlock" and "eclipse romantic ones" can and will be realised in the show. But good to see we can all agree that John was never happier than with Sherlock in a non-sexual relationship and without a long-term sexual/romantic relationship with a woman.

Vhanja · November 14, 2016 7:41 pm

SusiGo wrote:
. But good to see we can all agree that John was never happier than with Sherlock in a non-sexual relationship and without a long-term sexual/romantic relationship with a woman.

I think this is quite obvious within the show itself, in my (not so) humble opinion.

SusiGo · November 14, 2016 7:44 pm

So the question is how they are going to develop this further. I am sure there is no way back to the pre-fall status.

And, no, there are people who actually think John is better off with Mary. It is not obvious to everyone.

Last edited by SusiGo (November 14, 2016 7:45 pm)

Vhanja · November 14, 2016 7:49 pm

Well, as I mentioned before, I think they can perhaps come full circle. That is - the two of them living in 221B as best friends, but both of them a little wiser and a little bit more open (less repressed) than before.

I think a great ending of the series would be to end it in a way that would suggest the continuation of a long friendship where they are happy solving crimes together. (Of course, Johnlock would be even better, I just don't see it happening).

Schmiezi · November 14, 2016 8:22 pm

Vhanja wrote:
I don't know if this has been linked to before in this thread or not, but I thought it a nice reference - and can be read either as a list "proof" of Johnlock (no, Liberty, no one is going to ask you to comment all these - it would be a life's worth of work. XD ), or just as examples of what is interpreted as the trope Ho Yay, whether it's real or not. (Although this lists all kind of Ho Yay found in the show, not just Sherlock and John).

Either way, I find it an interesting overview of the subject in general.

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/HoYay/Sherlock

Oh, and for those unfamiliar with the trope name, here's the main trope page that gives an explanation:

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/HoYay

I posted it once but that must have been in summer 2015 or something. It's still a great link, thank you for bringen it up again. :-)

Schmiezi · November 14, 2016 8:25 pm

SusiGo wrote:
And, no, there are people who actually think John is better off with Mary. It is not obvious to everyone.

I know that you can find this on tumblr. I wonder if somebody here on the forum also believes that. Is here somebody who does?

I could see it when it comes to people who ship Sherlolly, for example. If John is happier with Mary, Sherlock would be free for Molly. Just saying.

Vhanja · November 14, 2016 8:37 pm

SusiGo wrote:
And, no, there are people who actually think John is better off with Mary. It is not obvious to everyone.

I can only speak for myself, but seeing as I don't think Johnlock will happen on the show, not having John ending up with a woman would basically mean "condemning" him to a life without romantic/sexual love. I think that might be why some want to see him with Mary, as there seem to be no other real alternative.

SusiGo · November 16, 2016 8:17 am

I know these are not new but those Korean Sherlock trailers still amaze me. No fanvids, official trailers, with love songs and no Mary anywhere in sight:

http://ebaeschnbliah.tumblr.com/post/153249964144/tendergingergirl-victorianfantasywatson

Liberty · November 16, 2016 7:57 pm

The last Korean trailer is hysterical! I don't think I've ever seen that before!

Liberty · November 21, 2016 5:06 pm

I'm getting behind with these questions! There's only a few weeks to go! Here goes for a few more from http://wmsscottholmes.tumblr.com/post/149143324929/if-tjlc-isnt-real

• Why did Sherlock look so weirded out when Janine said 'no sex, okay’?
He doesn’t do sex. And I think he’s taken aback that she mentions it! But he quickly recovers and looks for alternatives for her.

• Why is Sherlock so skilled at gauging the attractiveness of men?
He’s a detective, and also he’s judging their suitability for a hookup rather than their attractiveness (the attractiveness is for Janine to judge!).

• Why did John not care about 'Mary’’s ex coming to their wedding?
Why should he?

• Why did Sherlock get obviously jealous of Sholto?
Because he’s John’s best friend and liked to think that he was the only antisocial best friend John has had. (I think John may be his first best friend).

• Why did 'Mary’ notice this and say 'neither of us were the first, you know’?
To make him feel better - it doesn’t really matter if there were past friends or girlfriends. (It certainly doesn’t mean that she thinks Sholto and Sherlock are John’s boyfriends!).

• Why did Mycroft tell Sherlock to 'not get involved?
We still don’t know Mycroft’s connection to Mary, so this might be an even more loaded statement than it initially seems, but he mentions Redbeard, reminding Sherlock about loss.

• Why did Sherlock compare his love for John to 'Mary’’s love for John multiple times in his best man speech?
Because they both love him.   John also makes this comparism himself (when he asks Sherlock to be his best man, and when they’re sitting on the seat watching the guards). (Just as an aside, I also think that we're continually led into thinking of Sherlock, John and Mary as "the three" of the title - setting us up for the reveal at the end).

• Why did Sherlock go catatonic when John asked him to be best man?
This is an interesting one, because we don’t actually see this as it happened, but as an illustration of Sherlock telling the story as part of a speech about John.   Not saying it didn’t happen, but I do wonder if it’s meant to be realistic or to include the exaggeration in the speech, in a “mind palace” sort of way. Anyway, to answer the question, it’s a big deal for him.

Liberty · November 21, 2016 5:12 pm

• Why was that scene so similar to a marriage proposal?
It’s the marriage episode, and in reality, it’s about John and Sherlock’s relationship.

• Why did Sherlock call John 'the bravest and kindest and wisest man’ that he has 'ever had the good fortune of knowing’?
Again, I don’t understand the question. Are you implying he is being insincere? I don’t think he is. This is what he feels about John, and he’s worked to prepare the best best man’s speech!

• Why the elephant in the room?
It’s a joke - Sherlock talks about the elephant in the room, which to the wedding guests may be a metaphor/saying (something which is pointedly not talked about, but is impossible to ignore), but what we see (either in real life, or in his mind palace) suggests that there was an actual elephant in an actual room.

• Why was John looking for cases to go on with Sherlock instead of planning his wedding?
Because it’s something he’d much rather do!

• Why was Sherlock scared of John and 'Mary’ getting married?
Because he knew their (his and John’s) relationship might change.   It’s very much a familiar story of how even very close, intense friendships can be changed by marriage, and particularly children. And again, we have Sherlock at almost that earlier stage of emotional development.

• Why did John make a weird face when he called Sherlock 'mate’?
He’s kind of acting here - he has been pushed by Mary to get Sherlock on a case. He’s making a bit of speech to “pretend” to Sherlock that it’s John who needs to go on a case. I think “mate” sounds awkward as soon as he says it.

• Why did Sherlock imply that he was John’s 'current commander’ and that Sholto was John’s 'ex’?
He’s jealous of Sholto (John’s previous best friend), and with a Freudian slip, puts himself in the position of current commander!

• Why did Sherlock get up and leave when John started talking about 'Mary’ changing his life?
He goes to investigate, just at the point where John was about to say something really nice to him.

• Why did John compare his relationship with 'Mary’ to his relationship with Sherlock?
Because he loves them both, and they both love him, because both of them have changed his life. (There are quite a few parallels between Sherlock and Mary).

Liberty · November 22, 2016 3:33 pm

Sorry, for more posts, but with only forty days to go, I've got to get on with these! I may change my view on them after S4 anyway!

• Why did Sherlock look so weirded out when Molly said that she’s having a lot of sex with Tom?
'It was an inappropriate thing to say (kind of funny, because it’s usually Sherlock who says the inappropriate things).
• Why does Sherlock have a file on John?
It’s the kind of thing Sherlock would do! (But also it gives him something to present to Molly).

• What is in the file?
I don’t know! Probably details of John’s background and so on.

• Why did he print out and glue a picture of John’s face onto a picture of the Vitruvian man (the ideal man)?
He wanted to calculate the exact quantity that would get John to the right level of intoxication. The Vitruvian man shows the “proportions of man”, so I suppose it helps illustrate the calculations.

• Why did John and Sherlock go to a gay bar during the stag night?
Is it a gay bar that they’re in? Apparently they filmed a scene in one, but it wasn’t shown, so we don’t know.   I think the plan was to go to bars in streets where bodies were found, so that would be the reasoning behind choosing a particular bar.

• Why did the lights look like the bisexual flag?
I don’t think we can really know for sure without the crew chiming in! I know the idea is that it’s meant to show that Sherlock and John are bisexual, but this is at odds with how they’re shown in other ways (Sherlock is ambiguous, John is shown as straight).

• Why did they lie together on the stairs at Baker Street?
They were tired and drunk - the joke is that it looks like they’ve had a long, wild night, but it’s still actually quite early in the evening.

• Why did John grope Sherlock’s knee and say 'I don’t mind’?
He’s drunk.

• Why did their feet keep touching?
Again, they’re drunk and seemingly more relaxed about body contact (although not as demonstrative as most drunk best friends!).

Liberty · November 22, 2016 3:36 pm

Finally getting to HLV!

• Why did Sherlock look so upset at Tessa’s story of unrequited love?
He looks like he’s struggling to stay awake! But then when she starts to cry, he is uncharacteristically sympathetic … because he’s drunk (which tends to make people maudlin).

• Why did he take his arm away from John’s shoulders when Tessa said 'I would of liked to have gone further’?
He almost drops off, shakes himself awake, then tries to look interested.

• Why did Sherlock lie on the floor with his arse in the air?
He was drunk, clueing for looks.

• Why did Sherlock refer to the night as a 'wasted opportunity’?
He’s talking about “the most interesting case for months”

• Why did Sherlock ramble about John’s cooking and jumpers in the middle of the speech?
He is realising there is going to be a murder at the wedding so he’s trying to solve the case while keeping on with the best man’s speech, talking about John.   These comments are rather random, just keeping the speech going (like the one about singing) while he scans the guests.

• Why did Sherlock tell a room full of women in his mind palace 'not you’ one by one but then pointed at John and said 'it’s always you. John Watson, you keep me right’?
At the most basic level, it turns out that John Watson is the key to solving the mystery. (But I also think it refers to their relationship in general - John DOES keep him right).

• Why did John touch Sherlock on the back when he saw him with Janine?
He congratulates on him on having pulled and slaps him on the back. (He also suggests that he’s trivialising the murder).

• Why do we see Sherlock give a vow to always be there for John John but not see John and 'Mary’ give their wedding vows?
It’s not part of the story. What would John and Mary’s vows add? The important part is Sherlock’s vow, which culminates in him shooting Magnussen.

JP · November 22, 2016 6:37 pm

• Why did the lights look like the bisexual flag?
Oh, please, the half of bars and clubs are lighted this way.

Schmiezi · November 22, 2016 6:51 pm

JP wrote:
• Why did the lights look like the bisexual flag?
Oh, please, the half of bars and clubs are lighted this way.

Did I get you right: you mean they look like that because it is a common way to light a bar or a club in England?

Liberty · November 22, 2016 7:23 pm

I'm not a clubber so didn't know, but I've just googled "club lighting London" and that does seem to be the predominant colour scheme. Also if it really was a gay bar, that might explain it. It could also have been the lighting people having fun. We may never know!

Last edited by Liberty (November 22, 2016 7:37 pm)

Vhanja · November 22, 2016 7:32 pm

It just doesn't make much sense to me to hide a potential romance in lighting. Or beverages. Or any other sublte hints that casual viewers won't notice. Because the majoirty of a viewer base are casual viewers. And to them, a romance coming now would be out of the blue. Because they haven't spent the waiting years reading up on metas analysing lightning, who drinks what in which scene and what some props, editing or detail might mean.

I don't think this is the kind of show where that kind of analysis is required. It's not David Lynch.

SusiGo · November 22, 2016 7:51 pm

I think this is exactly the show where this kind of analysis is if not required, at least encouraged. I am sure e.g. Arwel Wyn Jones would be very disappointed if we did not interpret every little detail he has chosen with such care. Like the elephant in the room in TAB. Or the heart over the fireplace in THoB. And these are just two examples.

And I do not think that you need to read metas or study film theory to see that these men are in love. Desperately unspoken but still.

Last edited by SusiGo (November 22, 2016 7:53 pm)