Vhanja wrote:

1. You add some malicious intent, where they are "smug" and "laugh at" fans, which I think is highly unfair and uncalled for.

2. You said yourself that this had nothing to do with Johnlock. So in a thread debating Johnlock you go OT to criticize Moftiss in general. As I've said several times before - it's not always what is said, but how it's said. Of course I think Moftiss can be critisized, but it's one thing not agreeing with everything they've said and done, and a different thing entirely to add maliciousintent and then criticizing them for that.

When I think about this entire debate, I just don't think this is how being a fan should be. If some people don't like the creators, don't like some of the characters, don't like where the story is going, don't like what is being done and what is NOT being done - why not move on to something else? Something that brings you more joy and less frustration? (And that is a general "you").

Sometimes these debates reminds me of the old saying: "I'm the biggest fan there is - no one hates this more than I".

2. It was hardly OT to point out that more people than Johnlockers are sometimes discontent with Mofftiss writing or their attitude and so it is wrong to only paint us as some Antichrists who bash the creators. This is not true and I objected to THAT, most of all.

As to other parts of your post - I am entitled to my opinion the same way as you do, even if it makes me "bad fan" in your eyes. If you like to police my posts that way, please, serve yourself.

Antichrist? Really? think interpreting my posts (and what Mofftiss says) with less hyperbole might make it easier to see the point I was trying to make.


But I think this debate is becoming less constructive and more frustrating by the minute, from the both of us, so I will leave it here.

SolarSystem wrote:

nakahara wrote:

Here is the example of a discussion forum of Dr. Who fans, discussing Steven Moffat´s contribution to the show. Some of the opinions are positive, some negative:

https://www.quora.com/Is-Steven-Moffat-ruining-Doctor-Who

Why is it that Dr. Who fans can discuss what they perceive as Steven Moffat flaws in peace, but Sherlockians are immediately accused of bashing?

More or less completely OT, but thanks for that link! What an interesting read, not just in terms of the way in which the topic is discussed but also in terms of the topic itself.
 

nakahara wrote:

Vhanja wrote:

I think that what you define as their "general attitude" is such a gross misinterpretation of what they actually said that I don't really know how to reply.

 

Here is the quote I was speaking about:

http://constancecream.tumblr.com/post/147954352058/you-expected-tab-to-be-a-stand-alone-because-we

Please, explain to me, where I have misinterpreted it.

Here is the example of a discussion forum of Dr. Who fans, discussing Steven Moffat´s contribution to the show. Some of the opinions are positive, some negative:

https://www.quora.com/Is-Steven-Moffat-ruining-Doctor-Who

Why is it that Dr. Who fans can discuss what they perceive as Steven Moffat flaws in peace, but Sherlockians are immediately accused of bashing?

Yep. It's really difficult to discuss anything -- if you're not constantly flattering Mofftiss, John Watson, and oftentimes Mary, you're going to be accused of bashing. It's a great way to derail conversations that some feel uncomfortable with.

The truth is, Mofftiss wants to have their cake and eat it too.
 

RavenMorganLeigh wrote:

Yep. It's really difficult to discuss anything -- if you're not constantly flattering Mofftiss, John Watson, and oftentimes Mary, you're going to be accused of bashing.
 

You might have seen something I haven't, but i haven't seen anything like this on this board at least. (And what I wrote in this thread is more or less the exact opposite of what you write here).

To clarify (and this goes for all of my debates on this forum - and other places, for that matter):

I strongly dislike when something is being portrayed as black or white when it's usually various shades of grey and nuanced. Because taking something - or someone - that is grey and complex and portraying it as one-sided and simplified, is a recipe for unjust judgement.

So if people here had done nothing but praise John, Mary and Moftiss, I would be the one on the barricades to critizise them. Neither glorification nor vilification works for me, and so I will argue to shift the pendulum more towards the middle whenever I feel it's leaning too strong to either side..

Some more questions answered (all just my opinion, of course):

• Why did John say ‘I hope you will be very happy together’ when Sherlock talked about Moriarty?
Because he was concerned that Sherlock was getting too involved with this particular criminal.  He’s worried that Sherlock is enjoying the puzzle at the expense of caring.  I think John recognises that like Moriarty, Sherlock needs distraction.  (However, Sherlock does actually care, which becomes more apparent later, I think).  

• Why did Donovan say to John ‘opposites attract, I suppose’?
Funnily enough, I’d say this was another gay joke, and it probably is, except that there’s no reason the statement has to be taken that way.  John seems to take it that way because he’s getting used to hearing it.   

• Why did Sherlock look at John after Moriarty said ‘I’ll burn the heart out of you’?
I didn’t notice that he did, (to me it seems that he’s looking at Moriarty) but it could be because (a) it’s John who shows him his heart and (b) John is the person he really cares for and Moriarty has already threatened his life. I do think a theme of this episode is Sherlock’s heart.   Also because John is his ally there and he's checking in with him.  But it did seem to me that he was looking at Moriarty - I will have to watch again for the camera angle.

• Why did Moriarty say ‘we both know that’s not quite true’ when Sherlock said that he’s ‘been reliably informed that he doesn’t have [a heart]?
It’s a facade that Sherlock has constructed.  Moriarty sees through it.  (Actually Sherlock's involvement in the Carl Powers case was probably a clue.  I don't think it was just a puzzle to him).

• Why did Sherlock freak out so much when he removed the Semtex from John?
Because it was so dangerous and John could have been killed.  I think he freaks out just the right amount for the situation!

• Why does that scene look and sound sexual?
It depends what you see as sexual, but as John says, it looks a bit like ripping clothes off.  And it’s quite urgent and frantic. 

• Why was John’s first thought ‘I hope nobody saw you ripping off my clothes they might talk’?
I don’t think it was his first thought - just the first thing he said to relieve the tension.  John has just come close to death, and then Sherlock has tried to say something quite serious and meaningful about their relationship.  John lightens the mood. (They don’t tend to express their feelings in that way often!).  

 • Why do they agree to die together?
I think they were both hoping that they wouldn’t die, and they weren’t many options left, but I think they were agreeing (if you mean the nod) that Sherlock would kill Moriarty.    

 

JP wrote:

Yes, this discussion is always frustrating, it feels like trying to discuss with the Moon Landing Conspiracy theorists.

Comments like this are the reason I don't post here as often as I used to.

Sorry, but this is insulting and definitely not the style we want to keep at the forum.

Sherlock Holmes wrote:

Hi Guys.

Just a reminder to be polite and respectful to everyone, regardless of their opinions.

 

In case not everyone has seen this post. There is a difference between discussing and ridiculing ideas. 

I found this debate on Reddit - debating Sherlock's sexual orientation and Johnlock. I found it refreshing because as interesting as the debate in this thread can be, we are still the same handful of people with the same handful of opinions going round and round in circles (like a Teddy Bear...). 

I found it interesting to see a whole set of new people coming from different perspectives and with some new input: 

https://www.reddit.com/r/Sherlock/comments/33p91g/possible_spoilers_honest_question_why_do_people/

I felt insulted, too. Therefore my re-post of our admin's friendly warning. I hope that at least her words will carry some weight.