nakahara wrote:

Liberty wrote:

nakahara wrote:

But in that case I wonder about Angelo.

He at least must know that Sherlock works for many clients. And yet the first thing he assumes when Sherlock enters his restaurant with John is "this must be his date"?

Why date? Why not "a client"? Why not a business partner? Why not one of Sherlock´s homeless network?

But if it was a woman, people would tend to assume it was a date.  Why not assume the same about a man?
 

Do people really assume that a woman and a man appearing together are automatically a pair? 

Many do. And when two men or two women appear together many people don't. Especially on screen. That's heteronormativity to you.

Mothonthemantel wrote:

Unsure why try to find 101 different answers when just 1 fits all.
Occams razor anyone?
Balance of probabilities?
‘You know my method. It is founded upon the observation of trifles.’

This. 

 

nakahara wrote:

Mrs. Hudson is not random "people who assume." Mrs. Hudson is an old acquaintance who knows Sherlock quite well. If she knew him to be straight, she certainly wouldn´t randomly claim such things about him. Therefore I believe her "assumption" comes from her actual knowledge of Sherlock and his orientation.


Angelo, too, is not a random guy who "assumes". Sherlock is his old friend. His "assumption" is therefore based on his actual knowledge of Sherlock and his behavior.

Sorry, but now you are ASSUMING things that are nowhere in the show as a pretext for your POV.

Mrs Hudson says in ASIB that she DOESN'T KNOW, if Sherlock EVER had a relationship with ANYONE.

We only know about Angelo that he is a thankful client (although his line about "headless nun" indicates that he might have been involved in one of Sherlock's other cases). That's all.

Mothonthemantel wrote:

Unsure why try to find 101 different answers when just 1 fits all.
Occams razor anyone?
Balance of probabilities?
‘You know my method. It is founded upon the observation of trifles.’

Occam's Razor also means finding the simplest explanation, the one that requires you to jump through less hoops. And as I've written before, for many of the lines in the article, TJLC doesn't fit. I don't even see how the relevance at all for some of them. 

And, for the rest, a close friendship fits just as easily.

So you have two possible explanatiions that fits. In my opinion, a friendship fits better than a romance in what we are given. I ssee very little romantic love between Sherlock and John. I see love, a close bond, a willingness to die for the other, unhappiness if they are apart - but I don't see romantic or sexual attraction.

Also, considering that one of the two possibilities have been repeatedly and intensly told not to be true by WoG, I think the conclusion is quite easy to make.

Some more questions answered!  I'm going to be using Arianne de Vere's wonderful transcripts to answer some.  (http://arianedevere.livejournal.com). And I won't keep flagging every "gay joke", because you know which ones they are!  (And the writers have talked about why they're in there)

.• Why did Lestrade say that John knows Sherlock better than he does even though Lestrade has known him for years and John had known him for a day
Because Sherlock is such a mystery, but he and John have a special connection.

• Why the prolonged eye contact
When?  In the scene with the drugs search at 221B?  Because John is convinced that Sherlock does not use drugs, and is encouraging the police to search, whereas Sherlock is intently trying to get the message across to John that he does!  

• Why did John shoot a man to save Sherlock even though he had known him for a day
Because of that connection, I think.   (Although we don’t know for sure whether he would have done it for somebody else or not.  It doesn’t matter - that’s not part of the story).   And part of their story is that they save each other.  Sometimes in obvious ways.  

• Why did Sherlock look at John the way he did in the car park?
If it’s the scene I’m thinking of, because he’s understanding what kind of man John is, brave and moral, he’s delighted with the connection they have and he’s proud of him.   

• Why did they get dinner together afterwards
Because they’re enjoying each others company and want to eat (they are sharing a flat and will often be eating together).   Sherlock suggests a Chinese rather than a romantic restaurant this time!

• Why did Sherlock suggest that they go on a date?
He doesn’t, it’s a joke, a funny misunderstanding. But at a deeper level, I think it shows the slightly chlidlike side of Sherlock, who just wants to have fun with his best friend, without girls (or boys!) getting in the way.  He has almost stuck himself a certain stage of development in this respect, whereas John hasn’t.

• Why did Sherlock crash John’s date?
Probably for the same reason as above, but also because the venue was actually part of his investigation, and he had sent John there (by giving him the flyer and suggesting it).    

Last edited by Liberty (August 20, 2016 7:16 am)

Liberty wrote:

Mothonthemantel wrote:

Unsure why try to find 101 different answers when just 1 fits all.
Occams razor anyone?
Balance of probabilities?
‘You know my method. It is founded upon the observation of trifles.’

The trouble is that we have different single answers!  (Although at least we do know now what the writers intend).


 

The answer "Johnlock" fits ALL questions, indeed. At least I think so. Is there a single question where it does not fit?

And billions of kudos for Liberty for her dilligence!

Liberty wrote:

The thing is, none of them need a Johnlock explanation.  And for a lot of them, I don't even see how there can be a Johnlock explanation - for instance, what does Sherlock trying to get John to "maximise his visual memory" have to do with Johnlock?  How can you get something out of that to show they fancy each other? 

Have you tried to do what Sherlock did? You are terrible close to the other one. A nice opportunity to be that close when you fancy someone whom you don't believe to fancy you in return.

Yep, trying to get someone to usual visualized memory doesn't count as flirting.
It would have been a waste of time, anyway.
Because in the same episode, when Sherlock seems to imply he and John are going on a date, John replies: I hope not.

For me, this is all ancient history.
It matters not, since John married Mary and began a family with her.

Mothonthemantel wrote:

Liberty wrote:

But even if that's what's happening, it's incidental.  It's not needed to explain what's happening.  Sherlock needs to know what was on the wall, the information is hopefully in John's head and he's trying to make him concentrate.  He's also not at all flirting, if anything, he's being quite bossy and putting John down a little. 

 
Do you think Sherlock would have acted the same way with anyone else say Anderson or Donovan or Molly ? Or would he just have cut them up verbally as idiots as we see him do usually with everyone else.

And yes! Sherlock does ask John on a date.
How can Sherlock not know the meaning and context of that word when Angelo used it exactly so in just the previous episode.Sherlock didn't seem very child like or innocent when he was noticing Sallys knees either.

He's much more intimate with John than the others, so it probably comes more naturally.  But I could see him doing it with Molly, maybe, or even Mrs Hudson, if he was very anxious for them to remember a clue.    Funnily enough, I don't see him doing it with Irene (I was trying to think of him doing it with somebody he fancied!), so I'm definitely not seeing it as sexual attraction.   I'm kind of puzzled that people do see it as sexual, to be honest, giving what's happening in the scene, Sherlock's manner, etc.

Sherlock does know the meaning of "date", I'm sure, but John has inadvertently defined it in a way that includes what they do, and Sherlock takes advantage of that.   The childlikeness is not the lack of knowledge, I think, but about being at the stage of development where friends are dating but you're not ready and can't see why they want to do all that kissy stuff when they could be having much more fun with you.   Of course, Sherlock is more mature than that, but I think there's an element of it there, and they do keep bringing it up (Redbeard, etc.).    It's clear that Sherlock isn't asking John out as a boyfriend, and it's clear that John would not be open to the idea.