As long as we get these mod's notes when the in-show-Johnlockers are in the majoity as well.  

On the other hand: I'm on my high horse, on the moral high ground.

See the staff are right: this thread can be fun...for all of us!

tonnaree wrote:

Additional mod note:  I think we have gotten off course here.

The purpose of this thread is to discuss why or why not we see johnlock in any of the exsisting Sherlock adaptions.  For the last several pages it's turned into a debate on the mental state of the specific fans who support Johnlock in the BBC series.  As a mod and as a participant I think this is inappropriate, at least in this thread.  If someone wanted to start a new thread about the psychological affects of certain aspects of fandom, feel free.  But I think that this particular conversation needs to stay with talking about if we see Johnlock, or don't, where we see Johnlock and what evidence we think supports it or not.

PS. Regarding Susi's note.  I don't think anyone in particular needs to be called out but the overall tone of the discussion in here has also felt a little bit off to me.  Let's just all take a step back and a big breath and get back to the fun stuff.

I have to say the moderation here does seem to be a bit vague. First the problem was that it wasn't a balanced debate, and that some unspecified people were making fun of others' opinions. Now it's mental health issues which are verboten. And to be fair, it's only been a handful of posts that have expressed concern over this, based on people in one specific video. It certainly hasn't been "several pages" of discussion about the mental state of Johnlock fans generally, and nobody has been disparaged or insulted. With the greatest respect, I think you're being both unclear and a bit heavy-handed here.

Last edited by Shani (August 2, 2016 7:15 pm)

Sherlock Holmes wrote:

In Canon
In BBC
In Guy Ritche
In any other adaptations.

DIscuss, debate, support, refute Johnlock in all its forms. Have fun.

Personally, I ship Johnlock for fun but don't really take it seriously. To me they're just really good friends. BFFs! It's a bromance.

The intention of the thread.

Indeed, it's what we've all been doing.

I'm a bit sad if genuinely caring can seem to translate into 'patronising'.

I agree, besley. I even explained why I was thinking how I did about fans and that I was like that myself. If that is patronizing, anything is.

(As for the atmosphere - I am tempted to say "welcome aboard, this is how it's been for some of us for quite a while").

Motho: Well, one could always argue John is bi. There is nothing in the show that rules that out. One could also argue that Sherlock is gay (or at least bi). Nothing in the show that rules that out either. I just see both points as moot if neither of them are going to act on it.

Last edited by Vhanja (August 2, 2016 7:58 pm)

Liberty wrote:

Sorry, I'm just catching up!  It's not meant to be patronising.  Did you watch the video?  From what the participants were saying, it wasn't just a case of being fans, or having a favourite ship.   They were using TJLC to deal with issues of mental illness and violence, and their own identities and orientation.   A big theme, I felt, was them saying that they only felt OK about themselves because TJLC was going to happen.  There was much more invested in it than just fangirling. 

Mental illness is a very real and common problem for teenagers.  If they're saying openly that TJLC is what they're using to cope, then I do worry.  A lot of them seemed to be hanging their orientation on it as well - because John and Sherlock were going to be a couple, it was OK for them to be LGBT. 

I've been a teenager myself (believe it or not!), and can remember how bloody awful it was at times, and I think these issues are much bigger than just your favourite band splitting up or whatever (although that can be big and emotional, it doesn't reflect on you personally, doesn't define who you are, or your sexuality).   I'm also a parent, and if these people were my children and LGBT, I wouldn't want them to invest in TJLC in this way, and I'd hope that there were better role models out there.  I also think that they are being deceived by the "community".  (And of course, not all of them are in this position, and I'm sure for many, many, it's just a fun thing to get involved with.   Those aren't the ones I'm worried about).

I hope you're right.

(Edited to add: this concern wasn't about fandom in general, or teenagers in general, or Johnlockers in general.  It was about a particular group of people who chose to articulate their feelings on a particular video, and those like them.   I found the video moving, and took the participants' comments seriously (almost to my surprise, because the other videos in the series had felt like a bit of fun).  Until I watched that video, I hadn't realised the part that TJLC was playing in helping people deal with serious and important issues like mental illness, identity and orientation.   I certainly don't think that having problems with those issues is weak, or that finding ways to cope with them is weak, and I don't think anything I said implied that.  Hopefully that makes things clearer ).

I know what you mean, Liberty and I don´t think you were patronising here or that your post was inappropriate. I think this problem is to some way connected with Johnlock and so it can be discussed here.

That said, I cannot agree with you on points you have just made.

You act as if it was solely TJLC that was helping some young fans coping with issues of mental illness, orientation or identity. Maybe I understood your post wrong, but according to you "removal of TJLC /whole Johnlock" = "removal of these teenagers problems".

But that is not so. In my opinion, if these people didn´t have TJLC/Johnlock, they would find another thing to hold onto - for example Korean pop singers, Comic books adaptations, Emo lifestyle, Kafka, you name it. And these things have the same potential to hurt/disappoint them too. For example, their favourite Korean band would break up and the fact would break up young fan´s heart. But you can´t prevent that, unless you want to remove every single piece of popculture from the world, which is impossible. 

So really, it´s no use trying to awake guilt in people who do TJLC for fun, as part of 120 years old Sherlockian /Holmesian game and who find their personal pleasure in this thing for whatever reason, because it won´t help these teenagers anyway. Even if we Johnlockers gave up our hobby all at once, all for their sake, our noble sacrifice would not help these kids - it will not substitute the lack of social help these young fans can´t find in their surroundings, which they try to compensate through fannish or some other means.

(If anything, I wouldn´t try to take this "crutch" from fans at all, if I could avoid it...)

And if you think about it, TJLC isn´t the only thing that can turn disastrous for young fans. What about people who adored, idolised Mary Morstan or Molly and based their opinion of feminism / woman´s image on these characters? Wasn´t it just devastating for them and their self images as women if both characters turned murderers, one in HLV, one in TAB? And these things happened as the part of text, not just subtext, so were potentionally even more harmfull...

I agree with all of you. But perhaps for some (like myself) this is just a lesson that has to be learned the hard way, ie through their own experience?

Yes, I agree, and that is one of my biggest concern - that Moftiss are getting the blame for something that isn't their fault.