BBC Sherlock Fan Forum - Serving Sherlockians since February 2012 » Johnlock: The Official Debate

besleybean · April 18, 2014 8:19 am

Not the conventional focus at the wedding...
Now look, I have not time for weddings.
But it happened.
John married Mary, not Sherlock...
(I will refrain from my necxt line!)

belis · April 18, 2014 8:37 am

Tinks wrote:
And I think that the art and the fiction around Johnlock is something which maybe should stay inside the fandom and not be presented to the Actors, anyway - although from what I've seen, it seems to be oh-so-funny journalists and Interviewers that try to embarrass the fans and Actors alike, by drawing attention to it, rather than the fans themselves.

I agree with that. All that stuff belongs in the fan space and I don't think it needs to be discussed with the actors. The interviewers keep bringing it up for the shock value but I think it's getting a bit old now.

Personally I enjoy Johnlock fanfictions and I can see the subtext in the show. I think it's quite clever how they write it that it can be seen either way depending how the viewer wants to interpret it. If Johnlock becomes canon that's fine with me but I think the show is more likely to attract more fans when the relationship is ambigious. That way it keeps everyone more or less happy regarless of the ship.

Lue4028 · April 18, 2014 3:16 pm

....
And they didn't show us the dance lessons?
Um... what?
That would have been a stellar excuse to put them in a romantic situation while maintaining plantonism! I feel stiffed.
BB, it's not like we can't see J and M got married. We do have eyes XD
Oh do tell, Tinks. What did Amanda say and what do you think? It's all relevent. ^^
The "two people I love the most" line is what I mean by ambiguity.. it's just so maddening. And you're right, they're doing it on purpose. Who says that at a wedding? DX He's supposed to only have eyes for his wife.
Haha I sense some angst about Mary from you, Ag. Did you see the cast interview like I recommended? It's very disarming.^^ Maybe you did and you still hate her. XD
Ur welcome for the link. It kinda makes your day, doesn't it^^ I've been chipper all morning.

besleybean · April 18, 2014 3:23 pm

I've actually lost count how many times Sherlock and John refer to each other as best friends.
But what do they know?
Anyhow, they lie all the time.
John decided to go through with a total sham wedding.
But wait, he only got married because of Sherlock being away...just like in Canon?
No, he would never have been interested in a woman, if Sherlock had been around.
I mean, it's not as if he ever went out with a woman before.
Of course I forgot, we saw him with a constant stream of boyfriends.

Lue4028 · April 18, 2014 7:18 pm

I'm not saying they aren't best friends. I think they are. Lovey-dovey best friends^^ And I don't think the wedding is a sham either. John loves Mary. It's just that he seems to love Sherlock that much too.
lol ok, John definately likes women. Just because he's sexually attracted to women doesn't mean he isn't platonically in love with Sherlock. Maybe he just loves two people at once?

besleybean · April 18, 2014 7:25 pm

Why only marry one of them?
He does love 2 people.
But he's in love with one of them.

Lue4028 · April 18, 2014 8:14 pm

I guess John adheres to the convention the person you marry must have a sexual relationship with you? I dunno, there are plenty of excuses I suppose. John does seem a little preoccupied with convention, at least more than Sherlock and his disregard for social norms. To be in love and to love.. it's all too vague to debate over. "in love" refers to the tenderness of heart found usually in sexual relationships but I use it for John and Sherlock because they do act sentimental like Romeo and Juliet, less gushy perhaps.. or perhaps not.

besleybean · April 18, 2014 8:39 pm

I honestly don't see where this comes from.
John and Sherlock both act differently towards women, than they do with each other.
Yes they hug and show emotion...they adore each other.
But men friends are like that.
But they are not romantically involved.

Last edited by besleybean (April 18, 2014 10:08 pm)

Lue4028 · April 18, 2014 9:34 pm

You think John and Sherlock represent typical male friends? I wonder what all the talk is about then.. J and S are very melodramatic with the "forigve me" sequence in the train bomb and the "I've only got one" friend scene, and that suicide phone call... it's all emotion, like u said. I guess I don't usually see that amount of sentimentality between guys,. it's usually more subtle.

Last edited by Lue4028 (April 18, 2014 9:43 pm)

besleybean · April 18, 2014 9:38 pm

I wonder this every day of my life!

No I do think they have a particularly close and loving friendship, but I don't think it's romantic love.

Lue4028 · April 18, 2014 9:45 pm

lol well there must be something weird about their relationship that's sparking all the talk. ok. What do u mean by romantic love?

Last edited by Lue4028 (April 18, 2014 9:46 pm)

besleybean · April 18, 2014 9:46 pm

The differnce between the love for your husband and the love for your children, for instance.

Last edited by besleybean (April 18, 2014 10:09 pm)

ancientsgate · April 18, 2014 10:04 pm

besleybean wrote:
I honestly don't see where this comes from.
John and Sherlock bioth act differently towards women, than they do with each other.
Yes the hug and show emotion...they adore each other.
But men friends are like that.
But they are not romantically involved.

They have eye sechs all the time, especially Sherlock looking at John when he thinks John isn't aware. Men friends are NOT like that.

Those in charge are playing with us, ladies; it's obvious, They're having a good time keeping us dangling and intrigued.

ancientsgate · April 18, 2014 10:08 pm

Lue4028 wrote:
You think John and Sherlock represent typical male friends? I wonder what all the talk is about then.. J and S are very melodramatic with the "forigve me" sequence in the train bomb and the "I've only got one" friend scene, and that suicide phone call... it's all emotion, like u said. I guess I don't usually see that amount of sentimentality between guys,. it's usually more subtle.

All I see between the men I know are handshakes, stiff, one-armed "I'm straight" hugs, standing around with a beer in their hands and talking about their jobs, golf, football (or hockey or baseball or basketball, depending on the season) and saying things like, "Have you seen Joe around lately?" Emotions? You gotta be kidding.

So yeah, there's about a ton and a half of sexual tension in every episode of Sherlock, virtually all of it between S and J. Those who insist that they don't see it must be looking at a different show than I am. Or they have their straight-guys-only sunglasses on or something.

besleybean · April 18, 2014 10:11 pm

But you know, I could just as equally say people have their Johnlock goggles on.
The writers and actors must be doing a crap job.

SusiGo · April 18, 2014 10:16 pm

It is called "heteronormative view", as I have learned.

The thing is - if Sherlock and John were a man and a woman and they behaved like they do and did the things they do nobody would doubt that they love each other. And the imagery - admiring the night sky, looking like THAT at each other, John being jealous, purple lights flickering over their faces and bodies, sad farewell at the airfield …
Honestly, I do not know any straight male friendship like this one.

Last edited by SusiGo (April 18, 2014 10:16 pm)

ancientsgate · April 18, 2014 10:16 pm

besleybean wrote:
But you know, I could just as equally say people have their Johnlock goggles on.
The writers and actors must be doing a crap job.

Oh, god, yes. I call them my rose-colored slash glasses. They are WELDED to my face-- even if I try, I can't remove them, so I see slash potential in lots of different places in movies and on TV. Lots. But I much prefer that to wearing a blindfold. Ahem.

Why do you say the writers and actors are doing a crap job? I don't think anyone here is saying that!

SusiGo · April 18, 2014 10:18 pm

No. They do a very good job because they allow different interpretations. And so should we.

ancientsgate · April 18, 2014 10:19 pm

SusiGo wrote:
It is called "heteronormative view", as I have learned.

The thing is - if Sherlock and John were a man and a woman and they behaved like they do and did the things they do nobody would doubt that they love each other. And the imagery - admiring the night sky, looking like THAT at each other, John being jealous, purple lights flickering over their faces and bodies, sad farewell at the airfield …
Honestly, I do not know any straight male friendship like this one.

Heteronominative, not homonominative? Wow, whatever, that's a 50-cent word for sure. heh

You're right-- if J and S were opposite genders, everyone everywhere would be shipping them for all time. I definitely agree. And gee, it's 2014, what's so shocking about two guys being in a sexual relationship of any kind, with or without romance/love/forever-ness? I don't get that.

besleybean · April 18, 2014 10:20 pm

It's all fine...
Are you really suggesting these 2 are in a sexual relationship?