Whisky wrote:

Just something that came to mind, and if it has been mentioned, sorry, I'm not up-to-date in this thread.
Just, in TAB, I found it interesting how Sherlock imagines John as the one trying to get intimate information out of Sherlock (glasshouse scene). To me it felt like Sherlock was getting annoyed and defensive. But as it was his own playground aka mind palace aka drugged mind, I think this reaction of him might have been honest. So that it's John who is trying to explore and it's Sherlock who is deliberately (!) shutting him out.
I don't see this scene supporting the Johnlock story arc. If there was the bigger Johnlock picture, wouldn't Sherlock's mind be the best place to show it?
The "eloping" fits in there, too. It's something that is thrown at Sherlock, he recognizes it as something that is thought about him and John, but he doesn't literally (or whatever is the equivalent in a drugged mind) "elope" with John there and then, when he could have (it's just in his mind anyway).
All restrictions of show reality are lifted, and yet it's not happening. That's telling. We even saw a naked Irene already in mind palace already. So why not naked John, if that's where it's headed?
I would argue "because Sherlock doesn't allow himself" if it was mind palace, but I tend to think that in a drugged state, he would be less in control over his thoughts. He doesn't seem in control at all.

Yes!  This is almost an hour and a half of insight into what's really in his mind.   If Johnlock was there, we'd have seen it.

The greenhouse scene pretty much confirms it too.  John points out two occasions when Sherlock seems to be interested in women (Lady Carmichael and Irene).  Sherlock tries to tell himself that he was just being observant or keeping a memento of a formidable opponent, but in each case, John says something telling that gives away that Sherlock was attracted.  And then they go straight into talking about why Sherlock doesn't have romantic entanglements.   Clearly he's seeing the women in the romantic/attraction sense, but suppresses his emotions - even tries to tell himself that he's the cold, calculating machine.   He's trying to control his thoughts there, but the truth is coming out. 

This scene is not similar to the scene in TPLOSH.  TPLOSH has a gay Sherlock and a supposedly straiight John.  John is basically trying to get Sherlock to "confirm" that he's not gay, because John is angry that Sherlock has pretended they (John and Sherlock) are a couple, and is horrified that people might believe it.   Sherlock's "you are being presumptuous" pretty much calmly and sadly confirms that he IS gay.  There's no defensiveness.

In the greenhouse scenes, John (the insightful John of Sherlock's mind palace) is asking as a concerned friend.    And he's not asking about sexual orientation.  The people he notices that Sherlock have been attracted to happen to be women, but that's not the point of the quesions.   In the end, the big questions are really "Why do you choose to be alone" and "What made you", not "Are you gay?".   (And if Sherlock being gay was the issue, he could have told John, just as TPLOSH Sherlock did.  But we know that even if he IS gay, he's fine with it - it's relationships he has problems with, not sexual orientation).
 

Liberty wrote:

Yes!  This is almost an hour and a half of insight into what's really in his mind.   If Johnlock was there, we'd have seen it.

The greenhouse scene pretty much confirms it too.  John points out two occasions when Sherlock seems to be interested in women (Lady Carmichael and Irene).  Sherlock tries to tell himself that he was just being observant or keeping a memento of a formidable opponent, but in each case, John says something telling that gives away that Sherlock was attracted.  And then they go straight into talking about why Sherlock doesn't have romantic entanglements.   Clearly he's seeing the women in the romantic/attraction sense, but suppresses his emotions - even tries to tell himself that he's the cold, calculating machine.   He's trying to control his thoughts there, but the truth is coming out.  

And this is exactly the heteronormative mindset we have spoken about.
John is willing to die with Sherlock at the end of TGG, they share thousands of magnetic looks and moments of closeness, Sherlock practically sings epics of how great John is and how he loves him in TSOT... but that doesn´t count as romance because people in question who behave like that are two males.
But Sherlock says a few apprasive words about Lady Carmichael (mostly to annoy her husband), he barely looks at her otherwise.... and boom! It´s romance and Sherlock is attracted to her! How could he not be - she´s female!

Liberty wrote:

 This scene is not similar to the scene in TPLOSH.  TPLOSH has a gay Sherlock and a supposedly straiight John.  John is basically trying to get Sherlock to "confirm" that he's not gay, because John is angry that Sherlock has pretended they (John and Sherlock) are a couple, and is horrified that people might believe it.   Sherlock's "you are being presumptuous" pretty much calmly and sadly confirms that he IS gay.  There's no defensiveness.

In the greenhouse scenes, John (the insightful John of Sherlock's mind palace) is asking as a concerned friend.    And he's not asking about sexual orientation.  The people he notices that Sherlock have been attracted to happen to be women, but that's not the point of the quesions.   In the end, the big questions are really "Why do you choose to be alone" and "What made you", not "Are you gay?".   (And if Sherlock being gay was the issue, he could have told John, just as TPLOSH Sherlock did.  But we know that even if he IS gay, he's fine with it - it's relationships he has problems with, not sexual orientation).
 

So the hint remark "You are being presumptuous" and an angry face is the confirmation that one is gay, but Sherlock´s behaviour in a greenhouse is not? Interesting....

I remain puzzled as to why the greenhouse scene is seen a s a 'gay' thing...when the only relationship even hinted at is with Irene...which matches the regular show.

besleybean wrote:

I remain puzzled as to why the greenhouse scene is seen a s a 'gay' thing...when the only relationship even hinted at is with Irene...which matches the regular show.

Irene beat Sherlock up with a whip, then sold him to his gretest enemy... and he clinically took her pulse to trap her. Hardly a sign of romance.

 

I agree.

Btw, I cannot help imagining Watson creeping around until Holmes falls asleep, reaching out for the watch, maybe even pulling it out from the waistcoat pocket, opening it, hardly daring to breathe, just to have a look at the picture of Irene Adler. And Holmes pretending to be asleep and enjoying the touch. 

How do you interpret Sherlock to think about John giving him fellatio when that scene was with Moriarty?

As I already said, Moriarty himself is using dialogue from the wedding referred to John, that has being used during all of TAB with Sherlock specifically pointing out that he doesn't usually say that and in no other circumstance. It is also a general want for fellatio, but that line connects it all to John.
It is obviously in the real of subtext and not text.

Last edited by Ho Yay (January 26, 2016 12:36 pm)

It being actually referred to John or not is hardly the most relevant point of my whole argument anyway XD, which was that at this point there should not be nothing heavy sexually between Sherlock and John directly.
It at least shows Sherlock thinking of receiving fellatio by a man.

Last edited by Ho Yay (January 26, 2016 12:45 pm)

Of course this too, but anyway in case it is not meant sexually it doesn't go against Johnlock at all.
Mine was an interpretation based in the context of an series/episode full of Johnlock and a line associated to John being used in that scene before the Moriarty licking the gun in his mouth.

I feel like you do, Vhanja. I watched s1-3 without the Johnlock filter and didn't see it, until I read all the metas and fanfics and then I was excited and happy to jump on the bandwagon. But I really didn't see it in TAB either. The Johnlock interpretations feel rather forced to me too. I think I'm over reading all these lengthy analyses, and I'm leaning back towards the "it's never going to happen in the show" camp. Although it's still fun to ship Sherlock and John in fanon