BBC Sherlock Fan Forum - Serving Sherlockians since February 2012 » Johnlock: The Official Debate

Schmiezi · January 24, 2016 11:14 am

SusiGo wrote:
Schmiezi, let me comfort you with a nice Moffat quote about his writing:

"If you're not reading the subtext, hell mend you."

:-D

Mothonthemantel · January 24, 2016 11:49 am

I Love that Moffat quote , especially ironic as historically the reverse has been true.

Last edited by Mothonthemantel (January 24, 2016 11:49 am)

Liberty · January 24, 2016 1:03 pm

Vhanja wrote:
What exactly is the difference between a bromance and a close friendship?

I think the only concrete difference is that a bromance is always between males. I'm not a big fan of the word. The wikipedia definition does fit John and Sherlock fairly well: "A bromance is a close, emotionally intense, non-sexual bond between two (or more) men. It is an exceptionally tight affectional, homosocial male bonding relationship that exceeds that of usual friendship, that is distinguished by a particularly high level of emotional intimacy". But I often see "bromance" used jokingly for any old friendship or partnership.

Moftiss seem to use "friendship" more than "bromance", so I'm happy to stick with that!

Harriet · January 24, 2016 1:46 pm

That is what Schmiezi already said, just with some more words to make this construction more meaningful - it's exclusively about men, after all

Liberty · January 24, 2016 2:08 pm

Well, maybe I'm being a bit unfair - referring to men only is the concrete difference for me, but there are others, that depend on how the word is being used. As I mentioned, bromance can mean a more intense relationship than just a close friendship. Friendship doesn't tend to be used in a disparaging way, whereas bromance sometimes is. Friendship can sometimes include a sexual relationship, whereas I don't think bromance can (being non-sexual by definition).

(Hopefully that's more helpful!)

Last edited by Liberty (January 24, 2016 2:11 pm)

Harriet · January 24, 2016 2:13 pm

Right, there is a sexist aspect: "Women can't have bonds as close as men can have" of the word
and a heteronormative aspect: "For god's sake, let's make clear to everybody we are straight!!!!"
(And: "We are men, thus we are special and need a special word for what is normal to women.")

Last edited by Harriet (January 24, 2016 2:14 pm)

SusiGo · January 24, 2016 3:27 pm

Good points, Harriet.

besleybean · January 24, 2016 3:28 pm

Well personally I don't care what people call it, I just know what it is.
For me it is exactly the same as a close woman-woman friendship.
I only didn't mention this aspect, because I can't think of where we are shown it in BBC Sherlock.
But I see it with the boys.
This is what I would expect in a show called Sherlock.

Little Weed · January 24, 2016 3:29 pm

All relationships that are non-familial at their very basic level are friendships or start off that way... so I think friendship is a great way of describing their textual relationship so far. Of course the subtext may possibly be telling us something completely different. I'm sure there's a Coupling quote about reading between the lines.

;)

Vhanja · January 24, 2016 3:36 pm

I didn't read into that "women can't be as close to each other as men", only that the word bromance can only involve men. So I don't see anything sexist in the term bromance.

However, I don't see any difference between a close friendship and a bromance. I personally believe the word comes from slight homophobia - some men who have close friendship with men might be scared of being thought of as gay, and so they try to avoid that with humour - thus using the word bromance. Or so I interpret it.

besleybean · January 24, 2016 3:39 pm

I could agree with that.
I don't know who first coined the word or why.
Possibly they got sick of being assumed to be gay.
Maybe not even because they thought anything was wrong with this, just that it was inaccurate.

Harriet · January 24, 2016 3:46 pm

Nope. Why should people who are mature in their minds feel a need to make clear they are straight?
Why should it make them feel sick? If not in a homophobic environment and mindset.

Vhanja · January 24, 2016 3:49 pm

I think for some it could be as simple as correcting a misunderstanding. I'm straight so if someone assumed I was a lesbian I would say that "No, I am straight". Not because I am homophobic, but because their assumption was incorrect.

It would be the same if someone said I was Swedish. No, I'm not Swedish, I'm Norwegian.

But for some I am quite sure homophobia in some degree is involved.

Last edited by Vhanja (January 24, 2016 3:49 pm)

besleybean · January 24, 2016 3:52 pm

As I said, I don't know why the word was created and I don't know really know who uses it that much.
I don't tend to.
But if I was asked to give an example, I might use Holmes and Watson.

Harriet · January 24, 2016 3:59 pm

Vhanja, it's a different context for men and women. Most men feel they have to defend themselves much more against people assuming they are gay than women do. And it's about male homophobia which is more spread than female homophobia. Quite sad ...

Vhanja · January 24, 2016 4:05 pm

Yes, there are a lot of juvenile and negative attitudes towards gay or gay assumptions, unfortunately. Says a lot more about them, in my opinion.

Harriet · January 24, 2016 4:08 pm

I agree.

besleybean · January 24, 2016 4:32 pm

Well as usual, we can all only speak for ourselves.
I personally don't have any problem with gay people in real life, fiction or in film/TV.
But I don't think that's what we are being shown with either Holmes/Watson or Sherlock/John.

tonnaree · January 24, 2016 4:37 pm

Harriet wrote:
Vhanja, it's a different context for men and women. Most men feel they have to defend themselves much more against people assuming they are gay than women do. And it's about male homophobia which is more spread than female homophobia. Quite sad ...

thank you Harriet. You've been making the same arguments that I was going to.

My dislike for the word bromance has nothing to do with my being a johnlocker. I have always disliked it because of it's implied homophobia. I think one of the most telling things is that there is no equevalant word for females.

Harriet · January 24, 2016 4:40 pm

I agree, tonnaree. I listed the other arguments on the page before.