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January 19, 2016 6:31 am  #4781


Re: Johnlock: The Official Debate

Well yes, what is important to Sherlock is the work.
At one time, he may have thought that was all he needed in his life.
He does see emotions and attachment as weakness.
But he has found John and genuinely cares about him.


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January 19, 2016 7:56 am  #4782


Re: Johnlock: The Official Debate

I think it's just that there's a discrepancy between what he tries to be like and what he is, between what he presents to the public, and what he really feels.   That makes sense to me, and fits with everything we see on the screen and that the team say about him.     I think the scene in TAB helps to explain that.  He consciously avoids romantic entanglements, but the feelings and urges are there, repressed.

I think he feels much more for John than for any woman he might be attracted to - he clearly loves him, is happy to state that publicly and finds that the friendship "completes" him.   He isn't avoiding romantic entanglement: he courts John as a friend, recruits him, wants him to live with him, etc.   He wouldn't do that if he was desparate to avoid falling for him. 

I was thinking of putting this in the friendship thread, but it's maybe good here:  Moffat's answer to the question about who needs Sherlock more, Moriarty or John?

Oh, John needs Sherlock more. I don’t think Moriarty needs anyone really. He enjoyed Sherlock as a distraction from the sheer tedium and insanity of his existence, whereas John and Sherlock have a very warm, very sincere friendship that is – certainly initially – mutually redemptive. I think they’re both saved now, in a way, so they know they don’t have to redeem each other all the time, but they are just very, very, very good friends. [It’s] relatively rare to portray your central relationship in a show as a friendship, so that’s quite special, I think.
(from Arianne de Vere).

 

 

January 19, 2016 12:19 pm  #4783


Re: Johnlock: The Official Debate

That's a nice quote Liberty. But quite rare ? lol . Mr G is surely aware that the Holmes Watson duo has been the format of a whole huge list of shows that form the backbone of tv history.  Think of a show or a detective and he comes with his buddy buddy sidekick . My goodness he writes Dr Who .Having a friend or companion or partner or sidekick is the norm


"Man may not be degraded  to being a machine by being denied to be a ghost in the machine."
It's just transport. The virus in the hard drive . However impossible .Must be the truth.
 

January 19, 2016 12:27 pm  #4784


Re: Johnlock: The Official Debate

This is true. And not few of these crime-solving/adventurous pairs have been or become couples: 

Mulder and Scully
Wimsey and Vane
Nick and Nora Charles
The Doctor and Rose 

Oh, but I do detect a pattern. About time for a same-sex crime-solving couple, I suppose. 
 


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"To fake the death of one sibling may be regarded as a misfortune; to fake the death of both looks like carelessness." Oscar Wilde about Mycroft Holmes

"It is what it is says love." (Erich Fried)

“Enjoy the journey of life and not just the endgame. I’m also a great believer in treating others as you would like to be treated.” (Benedict Cumberbatch)



 
 

January 19, 2016 1:59 pm  #4785


Re: Johnlock: The Official Debate

SusiGo wrote:

This is true. And not few of these crime-solving/adventurous pairs have been or become couples: 

Mulder and Scully
Wimsey and Vane
Nick and Nora Charles
The Doctor and Rose 

Oh, but I do detect a pattern. About time for a same-sex crime-solving couple, I suppose. 
 

Where do I sign?


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Honorary German  
"Anyone who takes himself too seriously always runs the risk of looking ridiculous; anyone who can consistently laugh at himself does not".
 -Vaclav Havel 
"Life is full of wonder, Love is never wrong."   Melissa Ethridge

I ship it harder than Mrs. Hudson.
    
 
 

January 19, 2016 2:02 pm  #4786


Re: Johnlock: The Official Debate

I want to sign this too.


-----------------------------------

I cannot live without brainwork. What else is there to live for? Stand at the window there. Was there ever such a dreary, dismal, unprofitable world? See how the yellow fog swirls down the street and drifts across the dun-coloured houses. What could be more hopelessly prosaic and material? What is the use of having powers, Doctor, when one has no field upon which to exert them?

 

January 19, 2016 4:08 pm  #4787


Re: Johnlock: The Official Debate

It is a nice quote, isn't it, Mothonthemantel?  .   I suppose it's still relatively rare for a friendship to be the focus, for the show to be about the friendship as much as "Sherlock" is.  It isn't just a buddy relationship (although I agree that buddy relationships are pretty much the norm).    But the important part to me (in the context of this thread!) is that he sees it as a friendship, and sees the friendship being what makes it "special". 

Last edited by Liberty (January 19, 2016 4:39 pm)

 

January 19, 2016 4:51 pm  #4788


Re: Johnlock: The Official Debate

Almost every show in the genre has the cliches of one risking their life to save the others , the tackling a gunman aiming at your partner or shouting for them to run while the other diffusers a bomb or catching a hand and pulling them off a ledge ,you know , it has been done to death for decades.
I keep reading quotes where the writers have said something like everyone was getting it wrong , they wanted to write a fix it , and B.C. said something like there was an agenda behind the relationship and where they were taking it and thought it would be interesting.
What could that mean , what's so very different and special about Holmes & Watson.


"Man may not be degraded  to being a machine by being denied to be a ghost in the machine."
It's just transport. The virus in the hard drive . However impossible .Must be the truth.
 

January 19, 2016 5:06 pm  #4789


Re: Johnlock: The Official Debate

I cannot find the quote at the moment but I know what you mean. Steven and Mark telling Benedict about the Sherlock concept and he says something like "when they told me where they were going with it". Which clearly indicates that there is something else than the friendship everyone has known for 130 years. 
 


------------------------------
"To fake the death of one sibling may be regarded as a misfortune; to fake the death of both looks like carelessness." Oscar Wilde about Mycroft Holmes

"It is what it is says love." (Erich Fried)

“Enjoy the journey of life and not just the endgame. I’m also a great believer in treating others as you would like to be treated.” (Benedict Cumberbatch)



 
 

January 19, 2016 5:06 pm  #4790


Re: Johnlock: The Official Debate

Any link for the BC quote by any chance?!

EDIT: hang on, is this a total misunderstanding.
I took it that BC was referring to going to the Victorian era and nothing else.
I had no idea that some people had put any other kind of interpretation on this.

Last edited by besleybean (January 19, 2016 5:08 pm)


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http://professorfangirl.tumblr.com/post/105838327464/heres-an-outtake-of-mark-gatiss-on-the
 

January 19, 2016 5:10 pm  #4791


Re: Johnlock: The Official Debate

No, the quote is from the very beginning, before they even filmed the pilot. Years old. And as I said, I cannot find it at the moment. Needle in a haystack. 


------------------------------
"To fake the death of one sibling may be regarded as a misfortune; to fake the death of both looks like carelessness." Oscar Wilde about Mycroft Holmes

"It is what it is says love." (Erich Fried)

“Enjoy the journey of life and not just the endgame. I’m also a great believer in treating others as you would like to be treated.” (Benedict Cumberbatch)



 
 

January 19, 2016 5:11 pm  #4792


Re: Johnlock: The Official Debate

Hang on, you sure you're not confusing 2 different quotes?
Because he DEFINITELY says this in his TAB interview.


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http://professorfangirl.tumblr.com/post/105838327464/heres-an-outtake-of-mark-gatiss-on-the
 

January 19, 2016 5:13 pm  #4793


Re: Johnlock: The Official Debate

No, I am not. I know which TAB quote you mean and this is not it. 
 


------------------------------
"To fake the death of one sibling may be regarded as a misfortune; to fake the death of both looks like carelessness." Oscar Wilde about Mycroft Holmes

"It is what it is says love." (Erich Fried)

“Enjoy the journey of life and not just the endgame. I’m also a great believer in treating others as you would like to be treated.” (Benedict Cumberbatch)



 
 

January 19, 2016 5:22 pm  #4794


Re: Johnlock: The Official Debate

I know which one are talking about, Susi. It's on one of the old documentaries "Unlocking Sherlock" or "Sherlock Uncovered", I think.


__________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
"We'll live on starlight and crime scenes" - wordstrings


Team Hudders!
 
 

January 19, 2016 5:29 pm  #4795


Re: Johnlock: The Official Debate

Ah, good. I will have a look. 


------------------------------
"To fake the death of one sibling may be regarded as a misfortune; to fake the death of both looks like carelessness." Oscar Wilde about Mycroft Holmes

"It is what it is says love." (Erich Fried)

“Enjoy the journey of life and not just the endgame. I’m also a great believer in treating others as you would like to be treated.” (Benedict Cumberbatch)



 
 

January 19, 2016 5:33 pm  #4796


Re: Johnlock: The Official Debate

B.C quote is from BFI screening of A scandal in Belgravia

"]Everything was there about his relationship with Sherlock - but at the same time this fantastic bit of writing about the discovery of what the relationship is between the two of them. "

http://waitingforgarridebs.tumblr.com/page/6


"Man may not be degraded  to being a machine by being denied to be a ghost in the machine."
It's just transport. The virus in the hard drive . However impossible .Must be the truth.
 

January 19, 2016 5:34 pm  #4797


Re: Johnlock: The Official Debate

What a surprise to discover  that , oh they are best friends. 


"Man may not be degraded  to being a machine by being denied to be a ghost in the machine."
It's just transport. The virus in the hard drive . However impossible .Must be the truth.
 

January 19, 2016 5:38 pm  #4798


Re: Johnlock: The Official Debate

You don't think ASIB says anything about their friendship?  I think it's one of the most important episodes.  For me, personally, it particularly showed a lot about John's feelings for Sherlock - I think we see more there than we've ever seen in S1. 

(Edit: I think it's really difficult to pinpoint exactly what Benedict means in that quote - he's not clear at all.  But I think it needs to be read in the context of everything else he says about the series).

Last edited by Liberty (January 20, 2016 7:09 am)

 

January 19, 2016 5:41 pm  #4799


Re: Johnlock: The Official Debate

But it's not like they are best, affectionate, confiding mates at the beginning...
They're not.
This comes with time and experiences.
The hugging boys just would not have happened in S1.
Friendships grow, deepen and strengthen, like all relationships.


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http://professorfangirl.tumblr.com/post/105838327464/heres-an-outtake-of-mark-gatiss-on-the
 

January 19, 2016 5:45 pm  #4800


Re: Johnlock: The Official Debate

B.C. said very much the same thing, about John and Sherlock and where they were going with it being "oh this is interesting " when he took the part , before asib was written .


"Man may not be degraded  to being a machine by being denied to be a ghost in the machine."
It's just transport. The virus in the hard drive . However impossible .Must be the truth.
 

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