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January 17, 2016 7:34 am  #4721


Re: Johnlock: The Official Debate

Watson in Sherlock's mind palace is his own creation in a way - he made him perceptive about those particular things (but it's Sherlock himself who "notices" them).   I don't think this conversation is really about catching a murderer at all, but about Sherlock's own feelings - it's almost a conversation with himself about his lack of a love life (rather than about John's love life).    It doesn't seem to be about his sexual orientation - both the people he notices that he's attracted to are women, but that's incidental.    It's more about his feelings, I think - his deliberate withdrawal from that side of life.   It seems that he pretends it's purely "for work", but it might be more about self-protection ("Redbeard").  

Good catch about the portrait and the phone noise - I wasn't sure what that noise was!   I think it's (obviously, I know!) also a reference to the original story, where Holmes kept a portrait.  And a phone replaced a watch in Sherlock's deduction in ASIP - I suppose it's the Victorian equivalent of something someone would carry about with them and keep close.  Anyway, obviously, Irene is in his mind when he thinks of people he might have considered becoming "romantically entangled" with. 

 

January 17, 2016 9:21 am  #4722


Re: Johnlock: The Official Debate

Liberty. lol yes . Sherlock thinks Watson thinks he was romantically  involved with Irene ?

Schmizi. Sorry yes . In Hounds and Vow Moriarty in the mp is Sherlocks worst fears and hidden desires (that he usually keeps chained up ) he tells himself he wants to die and is  worrying about John.I think it's the same in Bride.

To put it more clearly , Mr Moffat asked us to read the subtext and knows we are all very interested in Sherlocks sexuality.They wrote a scene In Bride where Sherlock asks himself about it and gives us three things , Johns gun , ghosts and Redbeard. What they represent is quite easy.

Last edited by Mothonthemantel (January 17, 2016 9:34 am)


"Man may not be degraded  to being a machine by being denied to be a ghost in the machine."
It's just transport. The virus in the hard drive . However impossible .Must be the truth.
 

January 17, 2016 9:41 am  #4723


Re: Johnlock: The Official Debate

No, what I really meant is that "Watson" is a creation of Sherlock's.  Sherlock is essentially using John to question himself.   This Watson is perceptive, but of course it's Sherlock's perceptiveness about his own feelings - something it looks like he avoids thinking about it in "real life".  Sherlock avoided getting "romantically entangled" with Irene, but didn't manage to avoid falling for her - obviously she's the example that comes into his head when the subject of romance comes up in his mind palace.  (The other person mentioned in that context is Lady Carmichael/the pilot, which is interesting, because up until then it has only been Irene.   It looks as if Irene was the exception in that she broke through his barriers and he fell for her, but she's not the exception in terms of Sherlock finding people attractive - probably no surprise, but I don't think it has been made explicit before). 
 

 

January 17, 2016 10:29 am  #4724


Re: Johnlock: The Official Debate

Yes, there is a link. Because Sherlock also acknowledges Janine as beautiful and she too appears in his Mind Palace. Plus Molly, who mattered the most.


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January 17, 2016 11:03 am  #4725


Re: Johnlock: The Official Debate

Yes, but I think it's not really explicit that he's attracted to them.  I personally think that he's attracted to Janine, but that's left open to interpretation in the show. 

 

January 17, 2016 12:59 pm  #4726


Re: Johnlock: The Official Debate

A re-run of what he said to Irene " I imagine John Watson thinks love is a mystery to me ...etc" chain of thought.
Only this time with Watson and different answers.

Without assuming Sherlock fancies all the women that pop into the mp
and in the simple you must have impulses - yes pass me your revolver John exchange the writers have at the very least made a Sherlock wants Johns err gun joke.
The text is funny the subtext is funnier.

Last edited by Mothonthemantel (January 17, 2016 1:38 pm)


"Man may not be degraded  to being a machine by being denied to be a ghost in the machine."
It's just transport. The virus in the hard drive . However impossible .Must be the truth.
 

January 17, 2016 2:52 pm  #4727


Re: Johnlock: The Official Debate

Liberty wrote:

Yes, but I think it's not really explicit that he's attracted to them.  I personally think that he's attracted to Janine, but that's left open to interpretation in the show. 

He was waiting to have sex with her until they were married. He never planned to marry her. So I would conclude he was not interested in intimacy with her at all. Could be the same with Irene. Feeling attracted to their personalities but not in a sexual way. I see no sexual attraction to either Irene nor Janine.


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"To fake the death of one sibling may be regarded as a misfortune; to fake the death of both looks like carelessness." Oscar Wilde about Mycroft Holmes

"It is what it is says love." (Erich Fried)

“Enjoy the journey of life and not just the endgame. I’m also a great believer in treating others as you would like to be treated.” (Benedict Cumberbatch)



 
 

January 17, 2016 3:31 pm  #4728


Re: Johnlock: The Official Debate

I think the joke taken from tplosh about a ladies arches , is intended to be a joke about a man only noticing the scantily clad ballerinas or a pretty ladies feet , because he is gay .

The real John has mentioned Irene and Mary in romantic ways ( baby names & you two should of got married ) so it's not a surprise Sherlock has him say it in mp . That's just - what John writes .


"Man may not be degraded  to being a machine by being denied to be a ghost in the machine."
It's just transport. The virus in the hard drive . However impossible .Must be the truth.
 

January 17, 2016 3:59 pm  #4729


Re: Johnlock: The Official Debate

I do see sexual attraction between Sherlock and Irene, but as I've said before, that could be because Benedict plays it that way (he's made it quite clear how he sees the relationship).  However, I think the writing tends to support as well: Irene does use sex as well her intellect to entrance him, and she "knows what people like".  I don't think the writing is so clear on Janine, and the chemistry more as "friend" chemistry (although she does look absolutely delicious in the 221B scenes!   They do seem to be filming her to appear very attractive, although that could be partly John's perspective).    But I do think the greenhouse scene suggests that he deliberately avoids that kind of relationship to avoid being hurt (and not just because of the intellectual impairment that he claims) - which would explain why he didn't go any further with Janine than he felt he had to.  The barriers were up. 

Moth, I don't think that it's quite a rerun of the ASIB scene (quite different things going on there!), but yes, there's definitely a connection there.  In the greenhouse scene, he's kind of using Watson to explore himself - the image that Watson created (in the mind palace - the calculating machine, etc.) is the image that Sherlock has tried to create in real life - not just for the public but for himself, I believe. 

I think in that scene as well, Watson seems to be seeing through Sherlock's supposedly detached observations about admirably high arches and formidable opponents ("I could tell", "A very nice photograph", etc.).    It's not that he's lacking in urges or emotion at all, but that he has made a choice to forgo that aspect of life. 

 

January 17, 2016 4:46 pm  #4730


Re: Johnlock: The Official Debate

SusiGo wrote:

Liberty wrote:

Yes, but I think it's not really explicit that he's attracted to them.  I personally think that he's attracted to Janine, but that's left open to interpretation in the show. 

He was waiting to have sex with her until they were married. He never planned to marry her. So I would conclude he was not interested in intimacy with her at all. Could be the same with Irene. Feeling attracted to their personalities but not in a sexual way. I see no sexual attraction to either Irene nor Janine.

Yes, you can find someone attractive, fascinating, mentally stimulating, and still not want to shag them.

Another view of the Irene picture in TAB:   We are in Sherlock's MP so everything comes from his subconcious.  So, perhaps Sherlock fears that John believes he was in love with Irene and still pines for her.  And because of this avoids attempting to take his relationship with Sherlock any further.

Just another opinion.  Your millage may vary.


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Proud President and Founder of the OSAJ.  
Honorary German  
"Anyone who takes himself too seriously always runs the risk of looking ridiculous; anyone who can consistently laugh at himself does not".
 -Vaclav Havel 
"Life is full of wonder, Love is never wrong."   Melissa Ethridge

I ship it harder than Mrs. Hudson.
    
 
 

January 17, 2016 5:06 pm  #4731


Re: Johnlock: The Official Debate

This is a good point, tonnaree. The pic he is carrying in the pendant is the Victorian counterpart of Irene's phone, it is a modern pic of her. John knows Sherlock kept it. And John behaved protectively as well as jealous where Irene was concerned, so it seems obvious that this fact has been incorporated into the Victorian MP.
 


------------------------------
"To fake the death of one sibling may be regarded as a misfortune; to fake the death of both looks like carelessness." Oscar Wilde about Mycroft Holmes

"It is what it is says love." (Erich Fried)

“Enjoy the journey of life and not just the endgame. I’m also a great believer in treating others as you would like to be treated.” (Benedict Cumberbatch)



 
 

January 17, 2016 5:06 pm  #4732


Re: Johnlock: The Official Debate

Yes, you can find someone attractive, fascinating, mentally stimulating, and still not want to shag them.

That's possibly how I feel Sherlock and John see each other!
 

Last edited by besleybean (January 17, 2016 5:06 pm)


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January 17, 2016 5:22 pm  #4733


Re: Johnlock: The Official Debate

tonnaree wrote:

Another view of the Irene picture in TAB:   We are in Sherlock's MP so everything comes from his subconcious.  So, perhaps Sherlock fears that John believes he was in love with Irene and still pines for her.  And because of this avoids attempting to take his relationship with Sherlock any further.

Just another opinion.  Your millage may vary.

I love your Interpretation of why MP Sherlock keeps a picture of Irene. It the first one that makes sense to me.


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I still believe that love conquers all!

     

"Quick, man, if you love me."
 

January 17, 2016 5:24 pm  #4734


Re: Johnlock: The Official Debate

There is this interesting comparison between what it looks like when your best mate gets lucky, and when your potiental hidden love gets lucky...

http://asherlockstudy.tumblr.com/post/137475395187/therealmartinsgrrrl-waitingforgarridebs


__________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
"We'll live on starlight and crime scenes" - wordstrings


Team Hudders!
 
 

January 17, 2016 6:07 pm  #4735


Re: Johnlock: The Official Debate

Schmiezi wrote:

tonnaree wrote:

Another view of the Irene picture in TAB:   We are in Sherlock's MP so everything comes from his subconcious.  So, perhaps Sherlock fears that John believes he was in love with Irene and still pines for her.  And because of this avoids attempting to take his relationship with Sherlock any further.

Just another opinion.  Your millage may vary.

I love your Interpretation of why MP Sherlock keeps a picture of Irene. It the first one that makes sense to me.

 Yes I think this is correct.

Sherlock tells himself he is attracted to John ( The gun ) but afraid ( The ghost ) of getting his heart broken and loss (Redbeard ) .
Apologies , but I like the simplest explanations , especially for subtext.
It not only makes sense in the scene , but for the episode and the season .


"Man may not be degraded  to being a machine by being denied to be a ghost in the machine."
It's just transport. The virus in the hard drive . However impossible .Must be the truth.
 

January 17, 2016 6:09 pm  #4736


Re: Johnlock: The Official Debate

Where did the subtext thing come from?


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http://professorfangirl.tumblr.com/post/105838327464/heres-an-outtake-of-mark-gatiss-on-the
 

January 17, 2016 6:27 pm  #4737


Re: Johnlock: The Official Debate

Straight from the horse's mouth:

"If you’re not reading the subtext then hell mend you."
- Steven Moffat, SDCC 2015

Not that we did not know before. 
 


------------------------------
"To fake the death of one sibling may be regarded as a misfortune; to fake the death of both looks like carelessness." Oscar Wilde about Mycroft Holmes

"It is what it is says love." (Erich Fried)

“Enjoy the journey of life and not just the endgame. I’m also a great believer in treating others as you would like to be treated.” (Benedict Cumberbatch)



 
 

January 17, 2016 6:29 pm  #4738


Re: Johnlock: The Official Debate

Do we have that whole interview somewhere?
I'd like to read it.
And just as well I like horses...poor Steven! 


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http://professorfangirl.tumblr.com/post/105838327464/heres-an-outtake-of-mark-gatiss-on-the
 

January 17, 2016 6:30 pm  #4739


Re: Johnlock: The Official Debate

I am sure you will find it via Google.


------------------------------
"To fake the death of one sibling may be regarded as a misfortune; to fake the death of both looks like carelessness." Oscar Wilde about Mycroft Holmes

"It is what it is says love." (Erich Fried)

“Enjoy the journey of life and not just the endgame. I’m also a great believer in treating others as you would like to be treated.” (Benedict Cumberbatch)



 
 

January 17, 2016 6:31 pm  #4740


Re: Johnlock: The Official Debate

Besides that, analysing the subtext is a common way of analysing films. ;-)


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I still believe that love conquers all!

     

"Quick, man, if you love me."
 

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