BBC Sherlock Fan Forum - Serving Sherlockians since February 2012 » Johnlock: The Official Debate

Liberty · December 20, 2015 5:26 pm

SusiGo wrote:
Another point: There are countless heterosexual love stories in films, books, opera, etc. in which couples have to overcome lots of obstacles, villains, jealousy, misunderstandings, intrigues, marriages to other people, whatever. Why, oh, why should in a same-sex love relationship everything be clear and open and easy from the beginning?

But we aren't actually shown these obstacles as obstacles. I know people will say that there are obstacles like (as mentioned earlier) John feeling uncomfortable with dating men, but we are never actually shown that, only that he dates women.

And secondly, the obstacles end up with sexual orientation being the "point" - not that that might not make an interesting story, but I think the writers have made it clear that's not what they want to write. (I'm thinking of Mark's "softly, softly" comment, and the lesbian couple in Doctor Who in particular).

SusiGo · December 20, 2015 5:38 pm

Moriarty has been the biggest obstacle for their relationship. Without him they would probably still live together in which way ever. And from Jeanette on John did not date women anymore until he met Mary (while Sherlock was dead).

besleybean · December 20, 2015 5:42 pm

Well yeah...we think.
Maybe he just didn't meet somebody after Jeannette.
We also don't know the time periods.
But to borrow from Lady Smallwood, the facts are these: John has only been shown to date women, he married Mary and is still married to her.
He married her even after Sherlock had returned.

SusiGo · December 20, 2015 5:43 pm

Probably for the reasons I have stated above. Remember what he tells Mrs Hudson? Not "I have fallen in love" but "I am moving on." Not exactly a declaration of love, if you ask me.

Last edited by SusiGo (December 20, 2015 5:44 pm)

Vhanja · December 20, 2015 5:44 pm

The difference with stories like Ross/Rachel is that it's clear from very early on that they fancy each other, and they say it out loud to others. It's spoken in words from them both, and then stuff/misunderstandings/obstacles etc etc happens.

Neither Sherlock nor John states that they are in love and/or romantically attracted to each other. Therefore, it is not clear whether or not their obstacles/misunderstandings/stuff "only" comes in the way of a deep friendship or a possible romantic relationship.

Because the pain Sherlock clearly goes through with the wedding might just as well be because he misses his friend as it can be missing a possible romantic relationship. Same with John missing Sherlock at the start of HLV - it can be romantic love, where he's starting to realise he's made the wrong decision. Or it can be a combination of missing the excitement, the lifestyle and the life in general with Sherlock as a friend.

Both interpretations are possible, because of the way it's shot. However, I would say that in the majority of the stories where all these obstacles are in the way of a possible romantic relationship, the audience are told - clearly and without a doubt - that one or both are in love with the other. Because that is the starting point of "will they or won't they get through this and get together?"

We don't get that in Sherlock, and that is why I tend to fall towards it never happening. Because it doesn't seem to be built that way, story-wise. But, again, I can also see how it's easy to interpret it that way, it doesn't really take a lot of assumptions to do just that. Hence I'm wondering if it's - at least partly - deliberate, and, if so, why they would choose to make the series that way.

besleybean · December 20, 2015 5:48 pm

Because they are playing the 'gay joke', they have talked about it!
Because of what people say about Holmes and Watson and because what people might say about Sherlock and John.
The one thing I want to ask the team if I ever meet them: do you regret running the gay joke?
People always talk...they do little else.

Vhanja · December 20, 2015 5:52 pm

I'm not talking about the gay jokes, but the way many scenes are shot in a way that leaves them open to interpretation.

Harriet · December 20, 2015 6:45 pm

besleybean wrote:
But Turkish baths were all the rage and they are also good plot devices.
I can only assume that 2 male friends sharing a bed wasn't looked on then as some might today...personally I wouldn't think anything of it.

That exactly is not the answer to the question I raised. Not is it gay or not - anyone can find reasons for one or another position here - but: Why was it important to ACD to mention exactly those things at all?
"Good plot devices" - for what? And why better than a pub, for example? Or a market place? Is it coincidentally? How about the swelling buds? Anyone's read Freud here?

And nobody can tell me that an author who was that much aware of the significance of details like ACD wrote it just accidentally. He who let his protagonist deduce everything about the lifes of the people he encountered was not aware of what a Turkish Bath was standing for? Not credible, imho.

besleybean · December 20, 2015 6:52 pm

But everybody used them...they didn't have bathrooms!

SusiGo · December 20, 2015 7:35 pm

besleybean wrote:
Because they are playing the 'gay joke', they have talked about it!
Because of what people say about Holmes and Watson and because what people might say about Sherlock and John.
The one thing I want to ask the team if I ever meet them: do you regret running the gay joke?
People always talk...they do little else.

I will never understand what the "gay joke" is and where it can be found and what its purpose could be. No one has ever joked about them being a couple. All characters have spoken in earnest when mentioning this (Angelo, Mrs Hudson, Irene, the innkeepers, Magnussen, Moriarty, all dead serious). And this is because they all realised that there was something between them. Sherlock has never ever protested against these allusions, not even with Kitty Riley although he would outlive God to have the last word. So no joke there either.

¯\_(ツ)_/¯

besleybean · December 20, 2015 7:38 pm

Well that's what the team have said.
But you miss understand, it's not to do with people thinking it's funny that Sherlock and John are gay...it's just them assuming that they are.

Vhanja · December 20, 2015 7:39 pm

As I understood it, the joke was in John's reactions. Poking a bit of fun at the assumptions and him endlessly trying to reassure people that he's straight. Just a bit of fun, I had no problem seeing the gay jokes for what they were.

SusiGo · December 20, 2015 7:44 pm

Although he never says he is straight.

besleybean · December 20, 2015 7:47 pm

Though he does at least say he's not gay and of course he would be marrying a woman.
Why would he say that?
He could just as easily have been marrying a man, but he chooses to marry a woman and as the team say on the commentary: Mrs H has had plenty of evidence that John is not gay.
So that's why the joke is over, as far as they are concerned.

Vhanja · December 20, 2015 7:49 pm

Ok, re-read that as "... trying to reassure people he is not gay".

mrshouse · December 20, 2015 7:50 pm

Just a thought: I think if the joke is about people misunderstanding them to be a couple, they could have fully resolved it in a nice manner inTSoT the latest. Take the stag night. The easiest way would have been to show the two jokingly along the lines of " oh, do you remember everyone thought we were a couple? Mwahaha!" "yeah, bro, that was a funny one, hahaha!" And show them relaxed and fully at ease. Instead what did they give us? The two flirting like hell when drunk and invading each others personal space. They gave us mentioning "wasted opportunities" when sober again. They gave us the dance lessons without anybody laughing it away. They gave us "Don't get involved". They dragged the topics of sadness, loss, farewell and being shot by brides through the whole of HLV.
If Johnlock never happens so be it.
But stop making us confused and sad.

besleybean · December 20, 2015 7:52 pm

I am neither confused nor sad...I'm loving it.

mrshouse · December 20, 2015 7:53 pm

That is good for you and not so good for me. How about my other arguments?

besleybean · December 20, 2015 7:57 pm

Hey...since when did I get my points addressed?! Tee Hee.
But ok, let me scroll back...
Well actually I'm not really sure which points you are meaning:
But as for the stag night.
I don't see 2 guys flirting.
I see drunk 2 mates having a laugh.
I would think pretty badly of John if he was hitting on anybody else but Mary on his stag night.
I think more of him than that.

mrshouse · December 20, 2015 8:00 pm

Oh, I always try to refer to the points made
But still: Why dragging the topics of sadness, loss, pain, heartbreakingly, shooting brides along? Why is nobody truly happy in HLV?