BBC Sherlock Fan Forum - Serving Sherlockians since February 2012 » Johnlock: The Official Debate

mrshouse · December 16, 2015 7:34 am

besleybean wrote:
Is he eating and drinking at that point?

Nope. Not yet.

Liberty · December 16, 2015 7:57 am

I think it's about the context. Lip-licking can be a sign of nervousness - it's a kind of awkward conversation, and Sherlock isn't responding in the usual, expected ways to John's questions. Meanwhile, John is absolutely fascinated by him.

mrshouse · December 16, 2015 8:24 am

Well, the context tells us that Sherlock -the most observant person in the world- thinks he's under a flirt attack.
And awkwardness cann occur while you are in love and flirting as well. Happens a lot, I think.

SusiGo · December 16, 2015 8:29 am

We are so often concentrating on John in this scene. But what about Sherlock? His answer "not really my are" cannot be explained away. Same goes for the fact that he is so good at reading other people and at once interprets John's approach as sexual interest. Which is mirrored by the "Gay! Hey!" scene in TGG. He may not be always good at reading female signals of sexual interest but with men he does not seem to have this problem.

Vhanja · December 16, 2015 10:13 am

SusiGo wrote:
He may not be always good at reading female signals of sexual interest but with men he does not seem to have this problem.

This is an interesting observation. I haven't though about it before, but it's quite true. Could that be an indicator that Sherlock is gay?

As for the scene in question, when I first saw it I hadn't been a part of the fandom and hadn't even heard of Johnlock. My first interpretation of that scene was John trying to get to know his flatmate. It's the kind of thing you do, I think - "Ok, we're going to be flatmates. Might as well get to know each other a little".

And I think the reason the conversation ended up more or less as a questionarre from John (which understandably is interpreted as flirting) was because Sherlock - as mentioned - didn't exactly reply as normal people do. Usually the question "Do you have a girlfriend?" would get a more conclusive response, and probably even a question in return. But it seemed John almost had to drag the info out of Sherlock, bit by bit. Thus the entire thing became more awkward than it had to be. (Which is seen by John's hilarious expression when the conversation is over - "I can't believe I had this conversation!"

Or he could be flirting. I would prefer that to be the case, of course, although I don't think that was intented.

SusiGo · December 16, 2015 10:29 am

It could indeed be an indicator.

Of course he is trying to get to know his future flatmate. But he is not very subtle about it. Others might talk about their jobs or football or whatever. To me John is going like a bull at a gate here. And why exactly is it fine and good that they are both unattached?

tonnaree · December 16, 2015 1:58 pm

I've said this before but I'll say it again. From my first viewing Sherlock has read as gay to me. Before I shipped him with anyone, I always got a gay vibe. His attitudes and reactions to women. His mannerisms and certain speech patterns. It's not actually a scientific deduction on my part. Just a feeling I get as a member and friend of the LBGT community.

SusiGo · December 16, 2015 2:02 pm

Beautifully said, tonnaree.

besleybean · December 16, 2015 5:22 pm

Well the writers have repeatedly said that Sherlock isn't gay, straight or anything ...he's just not interested/not made that way or whatever.
I am leaving aside Benedict's 'jokey' comments about getting off with Irene after he rescued her.
Also, Steven's comments about John being a bit proud that Sherlock had got off with the hot girl from the wedding, as his first girlfriend I man really...where does that come from?
I am not absolutely convinced Sherlock isn't gay. He appears to be at least celibate, if not asexual...but he could be gay asexual.
Sherlock clearly loves John. Taking what actors and writers have all said, I accept that it's just as a friend. But as he seems celibate and if he is asexual, it wouldn't really matter...
He seems more tender to women than he is with men: Sarah, Molly, even Janine..
He accepts e.g Mary kissing him(and in fact kisses her), but flinches or looks awkward when Greg/Philip hug him.
He doesn't really react when John hugs him at the wedding.
Regardless of Sherlock's feelings for John, he officially hands him over to Mary(at the wedding) and accepts that Mary is important to John.(one of the 2 people in the world who love him the most)
Although I hate having to accept this, Sherlock clearly has some feelings towards Irene...
That whole episode was tagged as about Sherlock dealing with love.
Though I'm not certain what exactly his feelings for Irene were.

Last edited by besleybean (December 16, 2015 5:25 pm)

tonnaree · December 16, 2015 6:00 pm

Sherlock hands John over to Mary and it hurts so much that he leaves the wedding early, alone, and starts doing drugs again.

If Steven wanted to show how proud John was of Sherlocks hot new girlfriend he should have instructed Martin to not act like a jealous child who sees someone else trying to play with his favorite toy.

besleybean · December 16, 2015 6:05 pm

I thought I made it clear that I certainly don't see John being proud of Sherlock getting the hot girl...
Except of course he does tease Sherlock at the wedding, with 'glad you've pulled, Sherlock'.(Incidentally, I could slap him for that comment!)
I just see John being totally baffled at finding a girl in Sherlock's room, as he's never show any 'interest in another human being'.

Liberty · December 16, 2015 6:30 pm

I'm not convinced that Sherlock is better at picking up sexual signals from men. If the writers and actors are to be believed, he misinterprets John in the restaurant. He knows Moriarty is flirting because he leaves his number - Moriarty is playing games with him and Sherlock falls for him (I do think Moriarty could be genuinely attracted - but it's not signs of attraction Sherlock picks up on, so much as signs that he is gay, combined with the obvious invitation).   I can't think of any other examples just now, but so far, his success rate doesn't seem to be much better than with women!

Of course Sherlock could be gay (although there is that attraction to Irene - it's very difficult to define him from just that one relationship, but it's the only one we've got to go on), but I think that the point is that he suppresses whatever he is. It isn't an issue for him. (Except during ASIB, when it surprises him and he learns to deal with it).    That has been consistent throughout the series, I think.

Sherlock leaving the wedding is supposedly based on a particular Doctor Who episode.   I can definitely see the resemblance, with the alien Doctor realising that he's not part of that human world, and leaving quietly and sadly.

tonnaree · December 16, 2015 6:38 pm

I will still aruge that Sherlock's interest in Irene was neither sexual nor romantic.

besleybean · December 16, 2015 6:49 pm

Tonnaree, I only wish I could agree with you...and I can apart from the following:
1.We were told the episode was Sherlock having to deal with love.
2. There is that hesitation when he's putting the phone away,the whimsical look out of the rain spattered window and the ' THE woman'.
These apart from the 'fuzzy eyed' look, after he learns Irene is alive.

tonnaree · December 16, 2015 7:11 pm

Both of those can still have varrious interpritations.

besleybean · December 16, 2015 7:20 pm

Hope you're right.
And to be fair: Steven always pointed out that there was never any real chance of Sherlock and Irene properly getting together as a couple...though when Sherlock sees her in his mind palace, he sees her naked.

Vhanja · December 16, 2015 7:43 pm

When did John say "Glad you pulled, Sherlock?" I can't remember that line.

I think both Ben and Moftiss is clear that Sherlock isn't asexual. The whole point about his celebacy (as with his "machine" persona) is that it's a conscious choice. He has sexual urges and he has emotions, but he chooses not to act on them.

besleybean · December 16, 2015 7:46 pm

Just after Sherlock has pirouetted for Janine.

Vhanja · December 16, 2015 7:54 pm

Ah, yes, never really interpreted that line that way, but it was probably how it was meant.

On a different note, now even BBC Store wants in on the fun:

http://221behavior.tumblr.com/post/135331902267/inevitably-johnlocked-nerdoodles-hmmhave-we

besleybean · December 16, 2015 8:05 pm

Wouldn't Hudders be 221A?!