Some very good arguments in that meta!

I would agree.  I don't think heteronormativity is what keeps everyone who isn't a johnlocker from being a johnlocker.  Maybe some people, but not all.  Until we have it proven one way or the other (either by Johnlock being completely confirmed canon or by the series ending with no romance between John and Sherlock), there will be people who see it or don't see it for a number of reasons.  For me, it's because I don't need it to be a romance.  I see value in it being a deep friendship, which is how I always saw it until I started reading stuff online that suggested otherwise, and now I can see it going either way even though I don't need it to be the romantic path.  I think friendship is often underestimated and undervalued, and I think it would be great for this show to continue demonstrating that.

I'm not much of a shipper, so I've been on the fence about Johnlock quite a bit.  I can see where people might interpret something as romantic, but I can also see other ways it wouldn't be.  And that doesn't mean I'm a complete slave to heteronormativity.  I've read books where I thought there might have been romance between two people of the same gender, but it was never confirmed, and I can certainly see why it was unclear and it could either be interpreted my way, or another, but I wasn't certain because it was never confirmed.  And I'm fine with that.  For me, until it's confirmed then I'm fine with however it goes in the story.  That's how I've always felt about pairings of any kind.  Some people really push for them, but for the most part I don't (there is only one exception to that rule for me, and it's a very different kind of show).  I'm happy with what I'm given.  If the characters love each other, in any way, that makes me happy.

Not necessarily.  The first examplle that comes to mind is the Best Man speech, so I'll use that.  Aren't those kind of things, wedding speeches, often where people express their deep feelings in words, romantic or otherwise?  Whether we see Johnlock or not, if John/female John asked female Sherlock/Sherlock to make a speech at the wedding, and they were friends, there would still not necessarily be anything that suggests romance, or be inherently romantic, in saying you will never let them down, that they saved their life, or that the person one is marrying and the best man/maid of honour/what have you are the people that the character loves most in the world.  It doesn't have to be a romance.  The people you involve in a wedding are generally the people you love most in the world, and not always because they are your romantic and/or sexual partner.
Another example, you can say very frankly and honestly that someone is your only friend, why does that have to turn into a romance? It doesn't.

I can't speak for this more in depth because I don't know anything about it first hand, but I'm told that the film Pacific Rim has two leads, one male and one female, who are quite close but not romantically involved.  From what I know, the leads in Pacific Rim have a pretty intimate moment.  But they're not a couple.  And that's just fine.
And I don't know how close Joan Watson and Holmes beceome on Elementary because it's another show I have yet to watch, but they might be, and from what I've read they're not a romantic couple either.

And besides that, there's going to be someone somewhere who will ship any couple.  It's why there are so many ships in one fandom, and contradictory ones.  There's always going to be someone who likes person A and person B as a couple, regardless of what their genders are and no matter where the story is going.

Last edited by Yitzock (September 7, 2015 5:19 pm)

Of course you can show a deep male friendship that is not a love relationship. But then you do not need to make use of these tropes. So if we assume that it is not done as a cheap "gay joke" and do not dismiss it as sloppy writing either, there has to be another reason. And for me the most probable explanation is that this is about a slow-developing love relationship between two men. 

I think the problem (if it is a problem) is that the show is done in such a way that both viewpoints (Johnlock or "just" friendship) are plausible. 

I've always maintained that I have no problem at all accepting and understanding that Johnlock will never happen. And I don't think it will. But if they never intended to imply anything else than a good friendship, why keep making the romance view plausible? 

Yitzock wrote:

Or it's friendship, and we see how we've underestimated friendship and its power, when really it has a strength that rivals that of romance.

To be honest, I think this hits the nail on the head.

I'm a Johnlock shipper by heart, but there's a difference between what I want and what I think will happen. Because what I think is that the Sherlock/John relationship is so unique in it's depth and strength that it's easy to view it as romance. And, as mentioned, plausible in the way it's done in the show.

It reminds me of the bond between Frodo and Sam. A friendship so strong and so close that it can be stronger than a romantic relationship, even. True love, but not romantic love.
 

Harriet wrote:

That it's easy to view it as romance is not an argument that it is NOT romance.
 

No, that's not an argument at all.
 

Yes, I think the tropes don't necessarily have to be romantic.  In the case of saving someone's life, there are a lot of cases (both fictional and real) of someone rescuing or saving someone else and it was not because of romantic or sexual feelings.  There are times where that was the case, but there are a lot when it wasn't.

Angelo brought the candle over despite any protestation.
The knee grabbing happened while they were drunk and John lost his balance.  You could replace any two characters and it could still happen.  Yes, he says "I don't mind," but that could just mean that he doesn't mind because he knows where the two of them stand and he doesn't care how others might react.  He knows why he did what he did.  It doesn't make him uncomfortable.
Hand-holding isn't inherently romantic.  When two girls hold hands people don't always assume they're a couple, so I think it's a bit unfair to assume a man/woman or man/man pair holding hands is a couple.  Esepcially in the context we see.  The two of them were handcuffed together, so it would be easier to run if they held hands.

Last edited by Yitzock (September 7, 2015 7:35 pm)

Well, that moment with the picture passed so quickly and without explanation it's hard to say what it means.  But I can see how it would be easy for someone to latch onto if they already were inclined to think a certain way.
But since we don't know the reasoning behind it, I can see it just as being something Sherlock found funny, since it's implied he made it.  Why does a naked body have to be inherently sexual? I don't think it does.  It could have been just something funny, since the files were to be used in science experiments, and the original image is often associated with science.

Last edited by Yitzock (September 7, 2015 7:48 pm)