Vhanja wrote:

Liberty wrote:

 
Vhanja, I think John gets his five minutes of glory through Sherlock's speech. 

That's a different kind of glory. That is still Sherlock & John. To me, it would be expected - and quite within the parametres of the show being Sherlock/John-centric - to let John and Mary have their five minutes of glory within their own wedding. But they don't. 
 

It's just personal opinion, of course, but I don't think it would have worked well to take time out to a focus on Mary unless it was relevant to the plot.  It's not a sit-com or a soap. And we don't see John and Mary's courtship - it's made clear that it's not about that because we come in straight at the point where John is proposing (in the previous episode).   It's not that kind of show and I'm really glad it isn't!

Don't get me wrong - I think it's fine for people to have wanted more (and in a way, I would have liked more backstory on John and Mary myself, especially if it was plot-relevant, but I wouldn't have wanted to waste some of the precious 90 minutes on it!).    I'm just puzzled that people think that the episode and scenes should be more focused on Mary, and find it odd that it focuses on Sherlock. 

To me, if you think about it focusing on Mary, especially in those scenes (the speech), it doesn't really make sense.   Sherlock is talking about John and solving a case.    Mary comes a little bit more into view later when she says things pertinent to the case, but otherwise, it's not really about her. 


 

Liberty wrote:

Don't get me wrong - I think it's fine for people to have wanted more (and in a way, I would have liked more backstory on John and Mary myself, especially if it was plot-relevant, but I wouldn't have wanted to waste some of the precious 90 minutes on it!).    I'm just puzzled that people think that the episode and scenes should be more focused on Mary, and find it odd that it focuses on Sherlock.

Personally, I certainly wouldn't have wanted more, not more John and Mary at their wedding, not more backstory about them (about Mary, yes, but not about Mary and John). But even if the show isn't a sitcom, I simply expected (and feared...) to see something more. The whole episode is more or less set on their wedding day, and although one could argue that the wedding just delivers the 'background noise' for the real story... I tend to disagree. Yes, Moffat wanted that best man speech, and of course you can only have that at John's wedding. Nevertheless they made the conscious decision to give us only a minimum of the 'happy couple' when there were lots of moments when they could have just pushed it a little bit towards the romantic without being cheesy. And for me that's quite telling not just in terms of this show not being about John Watson and his wife, but in terms of Sherlock and his John Watson. 

Yes, Susi, it only needs tiny details to make absolutely clear that John and Mary are romantically in love, but I don't see it on screen. Basically, what the writers are telling me is "They are married now, we are giving you a whole episode about that, so they are in love" - but again, I don't see it. For me it's a hollow assertion without any content. 

edit: About those tiny details: Whenever I see the shaving scene in TEH I'm thinking that Mary could so easily have gotten up from bed at one point and stepped behind John while he was standing in front of the mirror... you know, just to be close to him. So they could have talked about Sherlock but been close to each other while doing so. You definitely can show something like this on screen without it feeling cheesy, even in a show like "Sherlock".

Last edited by SolarSystem (March 6, 2015 8:50 am)

I suppose we just see it differently.  I've always thought it has been about Sherlock and John from the beginning, and the writers have claimed that as well (and that's the way it is in the books).  I don't think what they've done is a departure at all.  

I do find it kind of funny that it's mostly Johnlockers (well, OK, we are a very small sample here, so I'm wildly generalising!) who expected more John/Mary, and find it odd that the focus is on Sherlock/John.  You'd think it would be the other way around, if anything! 

Liberty wrote:

I do find it kind of funny that it's mostly Johnlockers (well, OK, we are a very small sample here, so I'm wildly generalising!) who expected more John/Mary, and find it odd that the focus is on Sherlock/John.  You'd think it would be the other way around, if anything! 

Well, I cannot (and don't want to) speak for other Johnlockers. But I personally see this focus on Sherlock and John even on John's wedding day as a proof for the fact that theywill turn out to be a real couple one day.

Think of it that way: The pairing Sherlock/John fulfills so many romantic tropes, while the pairing Mary/John avoids so many romantic tropes. Coincidence? I don't think so.

Last edited by Schmiezi (March 6, 2015 3:52 pm)

Schmiezi wrote:

The pairing Sherlock/John fulfills so many romantic tropes, while the pairing Mary/John avoids so many romantic tropes. Coincidence? I don't think so.

and I would add that the universe (and the writers...!) is rarely so lazy.
On the topic of showing John and Mary's domestic happiness...well, what strikes me is the beginning of HLV, where John shouts at his wife because, we learn a little bit later on, he was bored after a month living as a married couple.
As Susi said, they chose to show them in their bedroom without any hint whatsoever at romance or the like. Instead, they chose to focus on John dreaming of Sherlock.
Then, when the neighbour comes into their home, the living room really doesn't look inviting (then again, it is possibly because the scene takes place in the morning. Problem? The day is not gray at all, if I recall correctly. Maybe a warm interior decoration could have put a bit of focus on their happiness. But the writers chose not to do so.).
Someone said that tJohn and Mary's living room was mirrorring that of 221B. While I tend to agree, I would also add that one might feel better in 221B, looks cosier and less...cold.
Domestic bliss? Doesn't seem like it in my opinion.

Well analyised, Lily. And another observation: we see John only twice in the living-room of his flat/house (MHR and HLV) and both times he is everything but happy. 

Lilythiell wrote:

I think John has every reason not to be happy in MHR -Sherlock is dead, after all. But he ought to be happy in HLV -return from sex holiday and all.
 

I agree with this. In the beginning of HLV, John has just been married, he has been on a honeymoon with his wife and she is pregnant - he is only WEEKS into his suburban life. There is no reason, no reason whatsoever, why he shouldn't be happy. 

Sure, his best friend is missing. That would worry anyone. But that alone doesn't count for the tense atmosphere of a miserable John we see in start of HLV. It really doesn't. 

And I don't buy John just missing some action. If that was all it took, suburban life coupled with some bungie jumping would do the trick. I believe that what he misses most of all is Sherlock, not just the adrenaline.

vhanja, can I just say: that picture in your signiture is SO CUTE!!!!!!!!

No, not the only reason, but I think it's a big thing between them: "the two of us against the world".  (I realise that "adremaline junkie" is just a code for it, because we don't really have a good way to describe it - it's not as simple as just wanting excitement and adrenaline.  John is tense and stressed without it, and actually finds it calming - kind of the opposite of the usual adrenaline effect).   It's all wrapped in Sherlock's personality, along with him being brilliant, mysterious, elusive, heroic, etc. - he's incredibly attractive.  The dream is just fairly specific though about what aspect of Sherlock he's particularly missing.

Last edited by Liberty (March 15, 2015 1:42 pm)