I get the impression that Benedict is a very thoughtful actor and does like to talk to writers, directors, etc. about the characters he plays.   How much say he has, I don't know.   I think the issue would be, NOT with Benedict and Martin having a gay kiss (I'm sure that wouldn't be a problem) but with them being led to believe it wasn't what their characters were about.   I think it was a slightly mean thing to do to Amanda (to keep her in the dark about Mary), but there is some sense to it there - she was playing a character who was not what she seemed.   To suddenly spring it on Benedict and Martin that they've been playing it wrong all these years would be a lot worse.   And would kind of make them look like fools for denying it.   I don't think it would stop things happening, but I can see them being irritated for that reason. 

SusiGo wrote:

Has anyone else ever wondered why Benedict talks with more depth about penguins and dragons than about Sherlock? Why he keeps repeating the same clichés again and again (sociopath, cold, cruel, unfeeling, etc.) when he can be so eloquent about his other characters? 

Hm, interesting. To be honest, I've seen much more interviews with him about any other character he plays than Sherlock. There haven't really been that much (at least not for me to watch). 

And just as he repeats the same thing about Turing, he also does it with Sherlock, doesn't he? It's how it is when you get asked the same questions over and over again.

Liberty wrote:

To suddenly spring it on Benedict and Martin that they've been playing it wrong all these years would be a lot worse.

Oh, but they've been playing it absolutely right all these years...! Those looks, the chemistry, the tension... okay, chemistry is there or it's not, but they gave so much more to it...and if they did indeed do this without knowing that Johnlock would be endgame... well, then I'd say they're both having pretty good instincts.
 

I could believe that Steven Moffat would outright lie about it in interviews, and others like Benedict try to avoid the topic altogether to keep secrets from the fans, but I do not believe that Mark Gatiss would talk in lenghts and detail again and again about what they thought about the relationship of the two of them and how they understand it and that it´s an attractive thought but just won´t happen in the show.. in interviews and the commentary. That´d be a level of lying that´s in no way justified by protecting a possible plot. Also all those little comments made by Una and other people involved.. they would either have to keep everyone in the dark for years, which would be highly unfair for the cast, or everyone has to make up all those little comments and make them sound genuine and improvised.. and if you´re not protecting something like national security I just can´t see a group of people make such an effort (lying costs quite a lot of energy!) over the years.

Last edited by Zatoichi (February 3, 2015 3:40 pm)

Vhanja, I've wondered as well (not why they're not doing it now, but why they didn't do it in the beginning).   This is purely speculation on my part, but I wonder if it's because they didn't see the characters as gay in the original books (which they both read at a young age)?  I know some people DO see them as gay in the stories, but I suspect most young readers wouldn't.   So the picture they had of this couple that they loved, was not that of a gay couple - and when they came to adapt it, I'm SURE they must have talked about whether to take it down that route - why not?  But maybe their childhood picture held out. 

It does change the relationship between John and Sherlock massively if they are lovers rather than friends.   When the relationship Moftiss had seen was quite unique, and something that drew them to the stories, they maybe didn't want to mess with it too much.

(Although I think they HAVE "messed" with it a little - I don't see it as quite the same as in the ACD stories).

(And about Harry Potter - I think that's a slightly different scenario, where the actors KNOW they don't know what's going to happen, rather them being lied to). 

Last edited by Liberty (February 3, 2015 5:08 pm)

Vhanja wrote:

Zatoichi wrote:

I could believe that Steven Moffat would outright lye about it in interviews, and others like Benedict try to avoid the topic altogether to keep secrets from the fans, but I do not believe that Mark Gatiss would talk in lenghts and detail again and again about what they thought about the relationship of the two of them and how they understand it and that it´s an attractive thought but just won´t happen in the show.. in interviews and the commentary. That´d be a level of lying that´s in no way justified by protecting a possible plot. Also all those little comments made by Una and other people involved.. they would either have to keep everyone in the dark for years, which would be highly unfair for the cast, or everyone has to make up all those little comments and make them sound genuine and improvised.. and if you´re not protecting something like national security I just can´t see a group of people make such an effort (lying costs quite a lot of energy!) over the years.

I think that is a fair point. 

I think it could be compared to J.K. Rowling and Harry Potter. The actors didn't know what would happen with thei own characters, neither did the script writers nor the directors. Alan Rickman knew some of it from the very beginning, and I think Dan Radcliffe did as well. But that was about it. Rowling even butted in a few times, when the director wanted to cut a minor character or move a scenery and she would explain they shouldn't do that because it would impact the future story - without giving details.

Point is - as few people as possible knew what was going to happen in the future, to avoid spoilers.

 
Harry Potter is an excellent example of how to keep a plot twist secret.. Alan Rickman knew about it from the beginning, and just didn't give any interviews about his character until the series was through (much to my annoyance at that time..^^). JKR always just said she won't talk about it and people will have to see for themselves. Although the rest of the team wasn't in on it, no one told them that "well of course Snape is a convinced deatheater, by now we have enough evidence to proof that, Dumbledore just wants him to be good because he wants to spend more time with him.." That is to say, you can do it without outright lying . Steven Moffat might not mind to admit he lies a lot, but I just believe that Mark Gatiss, Ian Hallard and others who talked very earnestly and heartfelt about it are basically decent people who wouldn't deceive their audience and team like that.

Last edited by Zatoichi (February 3, 2015 5:19 pm)

Yes, and I don't even mean in the sense of them thinking "the public isn't ready for this", but just about them having their own ideas of the characters and the relationships over years, before coming to write the series.   Like so many people, I read The Hobbit at a young age, and I really wasn't happy with the romance story that was added to it for the films - it just wasn't that kind of story for me.   I'd have been even less happy if say, Bilbo and Gandalf (or anyone) had been lovers, because they're main characters and it would change their relationship, and change the story into something else.  

I can imagine if I'd felt the way Moftiss did about the ACD stories at a young age, I might feel the same about not wanting to tag on a romance that would alter the main characters.  It would be different if they'd come to the books later in life, I think.

(Even for me, coming to it later, it still seems out of character for Sherlock to have a lover - it's not what he does.  I'm happy for it to be fantasy, and if Benedict ever wants to elaborate any more on what he'd be like, he's very welcome!). 
 

Last edited by Liberty (February 3, 2015 6:10 pm)

Vhanja wrote:

...........So I don't think it's the idea of "kissing another man" that would make the uncomfortable, I think both of them would do that without hesitation in the right role. But with all the stuff they've gone through with Sherlock already, imagine if Johnlock became real? Imagine the media, the fandom, the frenzy - they would never live it down. I personally think that aspect alone will ensure that it never happens in the show.

I think you're right. And god knows, I don't want to see the showrunners decide to "go there" with S and J just to please or appease any fans of any persuasion. I hope they stay true to what THEIR vision for the show's story-telling is, because if they do so, then IMO they won't make any mistakes or make anyone cringe.

 

SusiGo wrote:

Has anyone else ever wondered why Benedict talks with more depth about penguins and dragons than about Sherlock? Why he keeps repeating the same clichés again and again (sociopath, cold, cruel, unfeeling, etc.) when he can be so eloquent about his other characters? 

Penguins and dragons were roles he took for a short time, with a limited run, while Sherlock will go on into the future for as long as there are good stories to tell and the two main characters want to tell them. I also think that the actors have been sworn to secrecy so much about future plotlines, now they're afraid to open their mouths, for fear of letting something slip. So Ben's memorized some "safe" things to mention or talk about, shoving everything else he knows about where the show will go into the back of his mind somewhere, where none of it will come falling out of his mouth by accident.


 

And this is what some people call queerbaiting (in case there will be no definite Johnlock in the show).