Whisky wrote:

Vhanja wrote:

(...) every now and then a scene comes up that I find really, really hard to explain in any other way than Johnlock. And John's jealousy in ASiB is one of them. It makes NO sense, no sense whatsoever, that a friend would act out of nothing but petty jealousy to see his friend flirting with a woman. No sense at all.

I don't know. When there is a strong sense of need in a friendship, it can happen. I know myself that I am capable of being jealous when good friends flirt or have boyfriends. That mostly happens when they fill up a space in my life that no other can fill. Because we share a hobby, a certain belief, just something I don't share with anyone else and no one else can provide. And then knowing that they spent so much time with someone else, I just become afraid they won't have the time for me anymore and I will come short on my needs. It's egoistic, but jealousy is a very egoistic thing imo. I think that can happen everytime when one of best friends enters a relationship. The focus shifts. And if the friendship is stable on both sides, it's all fine. But Sherlock and also Irene are very intense people, and I can totally understand the jealousy even in a friendship concept. Being with Irene would certainly keep Sherlock very entertained and busy and maybe he would become totally invested in Irene, and John would loose out. Would loose the man who anchors him, who has so much fun with. But is that automatically proof of romantic love? Isn't that just a jealous friend?
(I am not saying that I see that scene only in that way, I am just saying I find jealousy not automatically proof for romantic interest)
 

I agree, Whisky, I know jealously in friendships, too. Also I see John as honestly concerned about Sherlock in this scene. And "oh no, now there are two of them.." 

So while I agree that Johnlock-y scenes are there I guess we´d all disagree about which scenes are meant and what exactly they imply.. but how boring would it be otherwise. 

For me it´s some things in the main-text..

"There´s something I always meant to tell you and never have.." - after he already said everything and more in TSoT. Probably just a bluff, but if not for me a confession of romantic love would be the most probable thing to follow such an introduction.

He pasts John´s head on the Vitruvian Man - as soon as you accept that´s something Sherlock in any state of mind would ever do.. which I still find pretty hard tbh.. that´s something a teenager in love would do, right? I guess it´s just them being funny (another example of the "Sherlock-being-awkward"-humour of S3), but sometimes I like to take the text serious, and in that moments I have to reluctantly agree that it looks an awful lot like teenage-infatuation.

He doesn´t step aside when the photographer says "Just bride and groom please!".. Made me go "Oh no, this is so supposed to look as if Sherlock feels part of the couple..^^

And some other things.. special looks etc not included, I don´t feel this kind of magic when they look at each other . It´s still pretty easily deniable or explained otherwise, but this is what gives me Johnlock-y vibes while watching.

@tonnaree: You´re more than welcome. Objective and honest discussions are the only ones worth leading imo..  

SusiGo wrote:

But John did not believe Sherlock's speech in TRF, at least not the part about being a fake. He did not buy it for one moment. And we see at the grave that he still does not believe it. 

I don't think he believed Sherlock was a fake, but I do think he at least partially believed Sherlock was distraught and suicidal - even before he sees the body, before Sherlock is going to jump, he seems to be believing that he might do it and desparately hoping he won't.   So he has seen Sherlock act quite convincingly as well as unconvincingly.   I still think he'd believe him, though.
 

You know, whisky, I absolutely love your analysis. Really well written and thorough. And I agree with what you are saying.

I started a thread a short while back regarding how people think Sherlock would behave in a relationship, how he would be as a boyfriend. Because I don't think he would change that much. I think his cases would always come first, his need for stimulation would always come first. HIS needs, HIS wants and HIS attention.

Yes, for the big things, he would sacrifice the world for John - and already has. He would kill, or get killed, to save John's life. I don't think anyone doubts that. But the majority of life consists of the every day life. And Sherlock has always been self-oriented, the world revolves around him, and if he is unhappy or restless, he blows tantrums so that no one can escape his misery.

That would be a challenge for any romantic partner to live with. Of course, John is already used to all this, so it might be easier for him. But as whsky mentioned - there is a difference between being someone's best friend and being their boyfriend. And for how long can you keep stretching the limit, keep apologising and keep forgiving before it becomes too much?

Very interesting thoughts!

As for the jealous - yeah, of course I agree there are jealousy within friendships as well. I felt that too. And I view Sherlock's jealousy towards Sholto as just that (more or less, at least). And that fits very well with his character. But I never saw John as the kind of person who would be jealous in a friendship. He's not half as possessive as Sherlock is. 

Also, John himself is the one who went out with all these women (who Sherlock also showed a type of jealousy towards, at least he didn't like any of them. I think that was friendship-jealosy as well). So John should be the very first one to show understanding if Sherlok fell in love.

SusiGo wrote:

And yet he is not. Not with Irene, not with Janine. 
 

He isn't, and that is kind of interesting. Well, with Janine he just seemed completely baffled. All throughout the scene at 221B he looks like someone just struck him over the head with a frying pan. And in the lift he is just mad that Sherlock would use Janine like that, even propose, when it was all a sham.

I mean, it's really not his place to be jealous over Janine when he is married himself. 

mrshouse wrote:

Sorry, but I definitely don't see Sherlock in any way self-centered during S3. Not one scene. He struggles all the way through the whole season to make other people happy, safe and comfortable. Everybody but himself. And no one really sees this and says thank you one time.

- Crashing John's proposal even though Mycroft tried to warn him
- Saying John overreacted and hand-waving away all his hurt and anger
- Tube-scene (which is probably the best - or worst - example of this in the entire show)
- Drugging his family to get to Magnussen
- Shamming Janine to get to Magnussen
- Taking drugs to get to Magnussen (and showing nothing but anger towards everyone trying to help him).

In my mind, none of these three last acts were done because Sherlock altruistically wanted to save the world from Magnussen. He did them because he personally hated Magnussen, and so it was important for him, emotionally, to get to him. What we've seen again and again is that Sherlock will do anything and step over anyone - including John - to have his feelings validated and his needs and wants met. If something is important to HIM, then that is more important than anything, or anyone, else.

However, him shooting Magnussen, I felt was the one true altruistic act he did. That was for John, and not himself.

I do agree, though, that Sherlock should have received more thanks and gratitude towards his actions in S3 (at least for TSoT and HLV) than he did. I feel John was unnecessary cruel and angry sometimes (not talking about the reunion scene). Then again, how many times haven't Sherlock been unnecessary a snarky bastard towards John towards all the series? So I guess in the long run it evens out, they are slightly damaged both of them.
 

Last edited by Vhanja (January 27, 2015 9:01 am)

@Liberty - I see what you mean, but... I don't see much jealousy from John towards Janine. (I see him first being so baffled he can't believe his eyes, and then angry at Sherlock for being so cruel, actually defending Janine). But I still find it hard to interpret the Hamish-scene as nothing else than jealousy. And I'm one of those people who don't believe Johnlock will ever happen, I still find it hard to interpret that scene as anything else.

I mean - all the two of them are doing is complementing each other and flirting a bit. John has probably done more or less the same with his girlfriends in front of Sherlock. I can understand him feeling the things you mention, it's just that his reaction doesn't come across as worried and feeling left out to me. It comes out as jealousy. But then we're back to subjective interpretations.

nakahara wrote:

Mrs. Hudson randomly become drug dealer, semi-reformed alcoholic and exotic dancer, which I personally see as a proof that Moftiss doesn´t see any merit in these "normal" characters as they were written by ACD. Yet their method of turning them "interesting" by making them all into "psychopaths" is a bit dubious in my eyes.

I have to say I'm also not very fond of that concept... but I think it works very well. Because think of how Sherlock and Mrs. Hudson got to know each other, and what she has to put up with all the time. I can imagine canon Holmes shooting walls, yeah, and honestly, which other landlady would put up with Sherlock's attitude towards a rented flat but someone who is also just a bit on the other side of conventional? I think a not-so-normal character just attracts more of them. So I am not sure if it's just to make them more "interesting". Maybe it's just fitting them in. And "exotic dancer"... I think that's just a joke, and I really don't think much about it. I also think it's more of a way to characterize Magnusson, not Mrs. Hudson (thinking of how Magnusson has a point "porn reference" in the files he keeps about people... I'm sure Mrs. Hudson has a lot of normal hobbies too, but Magnusson wouldn't list those and so we aren't told either).

 

Just an aside - strangely enough I never felt Sherlock as a negative character, not even in the earlier episodes where he does and says a lot unacceptable things. Because they gave more and more hints about the depths of his character and the feelings he has, but clearly tries to hide and suppress. Just think of the friend/colleague scene in TBB and this is just one example.

But maye this is just because I have never been really fond of Canon Holmes, i.e. I never got attached to him as a character in an emotional way. With Sherlock, I do. So they must have done something right..  

Whisky wrote:

I have to say I'm also not very fond of that concept... but I think it works very well. Because think of how Sherlock and Mrs. Hudson got to know each other, and what she has to put up with all the time. I can imagine canon Holmes shooting walls, yeah, and honestly, which other landlady would put up with Sherlock's attitude towards a rented flat but someone who is also just a bit on the other side of conventional? I think a not-so-normal character just attracts more of them.
 

This thought actually saddens me because it seems to indicate that Sherlock is so abnormal that he cannot make friends and acquaintances with ordinary people - that he must be stuck in some "psychopathic" ghetto.

Wasn´t it nicer and more uplifting to see that he, althrough being atypical and weird, still can earn friendship and respect of "normal" people? That people like Mrs. Hudson or John can value his uniqueness as it is and ignore his flaws for the sake of friendship (and not associate with him just because they are abnormaly attracted to "psychopaths")?
 

Last edited by nakahara (January 27, 2015 12:44 pm)

In my opinion this is a bit special in S3. The feeling of filling the scenery with more and more smart, superclever, super skilled protagonists. Whereas Sherlock goes the direct opposite, towards being more human, soft, loving. And in the end he is less understood and valued than before whilst going this direction. I never had trouble with the side characters to be too boring for this show, up to S3 I loved every single one of them, also Donovan. 
I think the writers have to decde which direction they want to go, an ensemble of smart people and the main characters overshadowed and chessmated or they concentrate on the main duo again, the cases and great sides to support them.