I agree. As well as important information were (and probably are) kept from the actors. Amanda for example didn't know about the HLV script when she played Mary in TEH and TSoT. So do the actors know all the developments planned for the future of their characters? No.

Vhanja wrote:

tonnaree wrote:

When exactly do we see John about to turn on his charm for Irene?   He treats her with disdain from the begining.  He sees her nudity for the maniplative move that it is and even ask her to put clothes on.  The scene where he shouts out his middle name seemed to me an attempt to get her to stop messing Sherlock about.
 

He is about to when he sits down on the couch with her, asking if she likes detectives. In the first scene with Irene and the boys. Sherlock sees that, and he immediately starts stumbling on his words. 

He sees John and Irene together and starts stumbling on words. Wonder who of the two caused that.

Last edited by Schmiezi (December 15, 2014 3:29 pm)

Mattlocked wrote:

Liberty wrote:

I don't think she's aggressive in the fireplace scene at all - quite gentle and seductive.   And it turns out that although he's not giving anything away, he's taken her pulse (he wants to know if she wants him).

I think the sherlocked scene is important - it's a great bit of acting, and I can clearly see he has feelings for her there.

 
I'd have pages to say, but here just a little bit.

At the fireplace Sherlock was not romantically holding hands, but taking Irene's pulse. Do people really do that, when they are really attracted to someone? IMO this was just another proof, that he was NOT in love, but still deducing. Because if she really was in love with (or attracted to) him, he could use that against her. (Human error)

And in the sherlocked scene I only see her having feelings for him. But not the other way round.

People don't do it - Sherlock does!   I actually thought this was a great piece of writing and one of the things that makes this one of my favourite episodes.  She's a woman who uses sex to manipulate people.   He knows that, so if she makes an advance to him and if he feels any interest - how is he going to know she isn't just trying to manipulate him?  Quite simple - he deduces - he deliberately looks for the biological signs. 

I think it's less likely that he was gathering that information to use against her, because he doesn't even think to use it until quite late in the day.  It looks like he did his deduction for personal reasons, and then later found that it was useful.  We already know he'd fallen for her to some extent, because his judgment was affected.  (Of course, he could be taking her pulse to use against her AND still be attracted to her - after all, she's attracted to him but uses him in a cruel way.   But the fact that he doesn't use the info till later, suggests that he only wanted to know if his feelings were reciprocated.  What he was planning to do with that information, we'll never know .

But it's great, because it's such a Sherlock thing to do.

Last edited by Liberty (December 15, 2014 5:39 pm)

Yes, I think Benedict is quite clear on Sherlock's feelings.  He has also playfully mentioned a couple of times that Sherlock slept with Irene when he rescued her - I don't think that's implied in the episode, but I think that it gives an idea of how he saw the chemistry between them.  And there's the Sherlock and sex interview - a bit of fun, but I think it's clear that he imagines if Sherlock did it, it would be with a woman. 

I think it's likely that some of that comes across on screen and that's what some of us are seeing.   After all, if this is the episode where Sherlock deals with sex and attraction, Irene's the person who's unique here.  Not John, who is in every episode. 

Last edited by Liberty (December 15, 2014 5:47 pm)

Well, ladies, very much looking forward to the times when we truly get into discussion again, not hammer and nail.  Ready when you are. 

Don't worry Vhanja, no hammer and nail in your hands. 

No, that alone wouldn't rule it out.
Possibly it's more a balance of probabilities.

Here's an interesting Mark Gatiss quote from when they were filming ASIB/S2.

"We didn't know if he was gay or not until the (first) series had actually finished, did we?  We kind of had to ... work it out.  It wasn't obvious."
(http://cumberbatchweb.tumblr.com/post/14810692388/caitlin-morans-article-on-sherlock-from-the-times)

So it confirms that his sexuality wasn't shown or even known (by the writers, anyway) in Series 1, but some sort of decision was made for Series 2.  It makes it very unlikely that it was the big gay love story that the BBC was waiting for (because if it was, his sexuality would be very important and they'd be dealing with that from Day 1).    It also means that any indications that he is gay (or straight, or anything else for that matter) in S1 are in our imagination.   It wasn't decided. 

It also suggests that it was decided for ASIB - if that was the episode where Sherlock deals with sex, then they would have to think about his sexuality.   Now, I still think it's a little ambiguous as there's only that one attraction (Irene) that we ever see, in just one episode.   But Mark seems to be suggesting that it's not - i.e. they did "work it out" by S2, and had decided if he was "gay or not". 

So then the question is if ASiB was meant to show that Sherlock was gay or straight?

 I don't think it was necessarily meant to give us a solid conslusion either way.

TPTB are never never make things that simple.