BBC Sherlock Fan Forum - Serving Sherlockians since February 2012 » Johnlock: The Official Debate

mrshouse · December 13, 2014 11:17 pm

@silverblaze, you think he's not at the peak of his powers because he likes Mary? Someone he recently met, who took his old life and flatmate? That's Sherlock's tragic story arc in S3?

Last edited by mrshouse (December 13, 2014 11:18 pm)

SolarSystem · December 13, 2014 11:23 pm

Liberty wrote:
Solar and Susigo, just a very quick answer as I'm off to bed - no, I don't see same sex attraction in different way, and don't claim to. I didn't say that any time characters lock eyes, they're sexually attracted (goodness me!) but was pointing out that Sherlock not only looks at John but locks eyes with Irene (at that point, where he's given her the code). But she is saying that she'd have him begging for mercy - it's clearly sexual to me. I can't see how else to interpret those words.

Well, like you're saying yourself: it's Irene who is behaving in a sexual way. But I don't see Sherlock act in a sexual way towards her.

tonnaree · December 13, 2014 11:24 pm

Can hardly keep up with this thread lately! So much action.

Just wanted to throw this out there regarding Irene. She is not just someone who likes to tie people up. She is a PROFESSIONAL Dom. And professional doms, 99 percent of the time, do not have actual intercourse with their clients.

I think this is important to remember when discussing Irene's private/professional life and the people she is involved with.

Side note: Even if Sherlock is using the airline deduction to impress Irene it's John he looks straight at when he's done.

Now, I"m just going to pop some more popcorn and sit over here and watch.

Last edited by tonnaree (December 13, 2014 11:25 pm)

besleybean · December 13, 2014 11:24 pm

Sherlock has challenges in S3...I don't really see it a s a tragic arc, well anymore than it's a Sherlock arc.
Dealing with the challenges of The Reunion and John's marriage yes...but dealing with persistant meglamaniac villains is his bread and butter.

Last edited by besleybean (December 13, 2014 11:24 pm)

SusiGo · December 13, 2014 11:25 pm

Solar: Yes. She is clearly trying to hit on him in a sexual way but it is completely one-sided.

Last edited by SusiGo (December 13, 2014 11:26 pm)

mrshouse · December 13, 2014 11:30 pm

besleybean wrote:
Sherlock has challenges in S3...I don't really see it a s a tragic arc, well anymore than it's a Sherlock arc.
Dealing with the challenges of The Reunion and John's marriage yes...but dealing with persistant meglamaniac villains is his bread and butter.

No, I don't think so. Let's be honest, S 3 does not challenge him with great crimes, 3/10 at the best, in S1&2 he wouldn't have left the flat for that.... His challenges ate all emotional and directly connected to John.

besleybean · December 13, 2014 11:37 pm

I agree to an extent...but he's coming back because of ' England needing him'...officially.

silverblaze · December 13, 2014 11:45 pm

mrshouse wrote:
@silverblaze, you think he's not at the peak of his powers because he likes Mary? Someone he recently met, who took his old life and flatmate? That's Sherlock's tragic story arc in S3?

Nope, never said that. I said he doesn't see through Mary's facade because he likes her. And that cost him dearly in HLV. I'm not sure he has a tragic arc, tragedies always end in death and he obviously survives.

mrshouse · December 13, 2014 11:48 pm

Ok, I thought it was an answer to my post that he is not himself throughout S 3, already be for HLV in my opinion. And the tragedy has its death, he shoots CAM for protection.

silverblaze · December 14, 2014 12:13 am

mrshouse wrote:
Ok, I thought it was an answer to my post that he is not himself throughout S 3, already be for HLV in my opinion. And the tragedy has its death, he shoots CAM for protection.

It was an answer to your post. Are we not talking about the same thing? Sherlock not being at the top of his powers is demonstrated in his failure to see through Mary. Which happens because he likes her. Are you talking about another demonstration of him not being himself?

Vhanja · December 14, 2014 12:16 am

tonnaree wrote:
Just wanted to throw this out there regarding Irene. She is not just someone who likes to tie people up. She is a PROFESSIONAL Dom. And professional doms, 99 percent of the time, do not have actual intercourse with their clients.

True.

So what would she have done if Sherlock had taken her up on her flirting?

silverblaze · December 14, 2014 12:26 am

I'm actually not greatly impressed with Irene's professionalism. Imagine paying a Domme, to do very intimate things with you, only to discover to have been filmed. No, not a nice woman that is. And she's not even in a professional relationship with Sherlock. Unless I missed something.

Vhanja · December 14, 2014 12:27 am

Well, as she states herself - she misbehaved.

Liberty · December 14, 2014 9:02 am

I don't think filming things was her usual MO. It seemed to me that the royal was an exception that she used when she was in danger - I may be wrong, but it was the other stuff on her phone that was important. She took and sent them try to get the government to back off. (She didn't use any of the information she had, apparently - just stored it for protection. But you've got to wonder what started it off and why she needed protection in the first place. Possibly it was just for that very reason - that people gave her secrets and then regretted it, and so she inadvertently got into trouble. But I'd like to know more about that). It's a bit like the Magnussen situation - she knew too much, and as long as she had information in her vaults/phone, it wasn't safe to kill her. If she didn't have the phone, then the safest thing would have been to kill her off to bury the information. So while I think she may have acted extremely unethically, possibly verging on evilly, at the point that we meet her, she's trying to stay alive.

Tonnarree, you're right, but I think sexual intercourse is part of sex, rather than the whole thing. I have no figures on how many people who visit a professional are sexually motivated, but I'd guess it's the majority. I suppose I would see it as infidelity if my boyfriend was doing that with somebody else, so it's sexual to me. (Although I know lots of people don't see it as infidelity). But that's just Irene's job, or even just her front, perhaps. In her other "work", she says that she uses what people like (and not everybody would like being sexually dominated), which seems to include sex. There's the mention of the marriage that she broke up by having an affair with both participants. Why would Sherlock even have to take her pulse? Because he knows there's a chance she's faking - it's what she does.

besleybean · December 14, 2014 9:11 am

Yes, he has to take her pulse to be certain

mrshouse · December 14, 2014 9:42 am

silverblaze wrote:
mrshouse wrote:
Ok, I thought it was an answer to my post that he is not himself throughout S 3, already be for HLV in my opinion. And the tragedy has its death, he shoots CAM for protection.
It was an answer to your post. Are we not talking about the same thing? Sherlock not being at the top of his powers is demonstrated in his failure to see through Mary. Which happens because he likes her. Are you talking about another demonstration of him not being himself?

Ah, okay, I fully get your point now. Well, true, but for me it's just one little piece of the puzzle. And to be honest, I'm not really sure that he already likes her, I think he desperately wants to like her, because he realized quickly that his old life can't be picked up where he left it, he understood Johns' anger and has to deal with the fact, that there is someone else in his life. He wants to do everything to regain Johns love and respect and keep him in his life. And that means accepting Mary at that moment, he's not in the position to mock her away like he did before with Johns girlfriends. And there are for me several examples throughout S3 indicating that he's not himself: when he shows around with Molly in TEH, in his conversation with Mycroft over the operating game, throughout TSOT (though there is the only time I have the feeling Mary and Sherlock like each other, during those scenes of wedding preparation) and of course he's not his full self around CAM. So it's not only missing clues about Mary.

Liberty · December 14, 2014 9:48 am

Solar and Susi - of course it's going to be one-sided with Sherlock. He doesn't do that sort of thing. It's also not 100% clear if Irene is friend or foe, and he's not giving secrets away (when does he ever?). And, of course, he doesn't know if she's sincere or not until he takes her pulse (and then they're interrupted). But of course, the whole scene is more sexual than the ones with Sherlock and John. I don't see either of them talking about sex in those other scenes. Even if it's coded messages, it doesn't come to anything. The heart - I don't really like to comment because it's difficult to be certain about those things. It could be a sexual sign (although I think hearts tend to be romantic rather than sexual), but could also be just continuing the "couple" theme in that episode, or even just part of the decoration of the room. I'm not saying you're wrong - just that it doesn't jump out at me that that scene is about sex, whereas the scene with Irene seems to clearly be about sex. It might be enough for you, but it's not enough for me.

If you try watching the final Sherlocked scene as if Sherlock is smug at having won the game over an intellectual adversary, and again as if he's won over somebody he'd developed romantic feelings for, I think it's quite telling. I know that's to do with Benedict's acting rather than the script, but I find it quite a powerful scene.

Last edited by Liberty (December 14, 2014 2:33 pm)

mrshouse · December 14, 2014 9:55 am

Well, we do a bit of zigzagging here, don't we? Do we discuss sex only or Johnlock in all its aspects?

Liberty · December 14, 2014 10:22 am

In those scenes, we're talking about sex, aren't we? I think I see this thread as being for the differences between the two (does Johnlock exist, is it implied, etc.), whereas the guide thread is more for Johnlock in all its aspects.

mrshouse · December 14, 2014 10:27 am

I see it differently. Sex is one aspect of many and for many Johnlockers not even the major issue. The comprehensive thread is for shameless fangirling and swooning about the two boys and wishing for them to be in a romantic relationship for many reasons and coming up with " scientific proof" to show that this is a romantic love story between Sherlock and John.